I have a student, 18, works in Burger King to help his single mother pay the bills. Meaning he is spending all his spare money on driving lessons, and so can't afford the bus to college, he walks four miles every day to get there, and four miles on the way home. He works hard at college but doesn't get very far, he is not confident in his own abilities and struggles academically, but he tries and so I give up a lot of my breaks to help him and other students in the same boat. The £80 a month that ALS gave my friends could really help that kid afford the bus, so he isn't so tired, so he does better at college, so he gets better grades, and potentially a better job. When I was his age I was looking forward to a summer in Italy with my then girlfriend before heading to university to follow my interests. This is no brag on me having been born into a lucky gig, in what kind of world is that fair? What really is the point of society that doesn't try to help everyone? (Written while invigilating a GCSE test)
She didn't turn up and all the people employed to help her did nothing for the duration of her visit that was now vacant? The appointment making cost is significant enough to be monitored / mentioned? She didn't turn up and the thousand pound vial cost remained in play? A vial of X costs a thousand pounds? This sounds to me like the system is inefficient and to blame, far more so than the person not turning up.
Ok a tad too many responses and points for me to respond to, so I’ll just pick the stuff that jumped out at me. Again, stop telling me I was lucky. I was not. Since when did working hard and not relying on benefits count as lucky? I was born with any medical problems, I don’t suffer from any mental problems and in that I guess I am lucky, but there are many many people that are without major debilitating problems that are happy to piss and moan about their situation but not do a damn thing about it. Ok, first off I didn’t say anything like that at all. So I don’t know where you’ve gotten that impression. Secondly these aren’t people I hear about or read about in the papers, these are people that I have to deal with. Its first-hand knowledge not some sensationalized crap. How about pride? The lack of police chasing after you? Being honest and hardworking? How about not being stabbed by a crackhead who doesn’t want to pay? Have you ever had to deal with crackheads? How about finding a OD’d prostitute in the block at 11 on the way to school because it’s the only quiet place to shoot up? Or seeing police raiding crack dens and being stabbed at 8yrs of age because some idiot is too high to realise who I am? Well I have, so don’t tell me “Look at the path they walk before you judge”. I don’t need to look at it, I’ve walked the same path. One final note on this, I never needed incentive to work hard…. To reiterate, I never said that. Again would just like to point out that I never said anything like that. I agreed with that point too. What is a decent job? As I’ve mentioned before, I did some pretty shitty jobs to get out of the rut I was in. The turnover in these jobs is quite high so jobs are available. Sometimes it’s the same money as getting benefit, but they often forget A you gain experience, B it looks good on your CV and C it should give you a sense of pride. 1.No, they spent some time waiting/calling/chasing up the patient. Then resetting the machines for the next patient. 2. Yes, the appointment facilitator’s time, the paperwork & postage costs of sending a total of 8 letters etc etc. It all adds up so it is significant and it is monitored. This is also without the costs of the consultant (original referrer), their time, their appointment staff or the paperwork involved for them. 3. No, the vial in this case was a radioactive tracer. It has a very short half-life and essentially becomes unusable. 4. Yeah, its expensive stuff 5. Believe me, this was not the system. This was a very selfish irresponsible woman who would rather go shopping and waste the NHS’s money than have her scan done. Not to mention never bothering to tell us until it was chased up.
I agree with the comments that you come across naive and have been quite lucky. You may be hard working, but the majority of people in the UK are - that's why we have been so successful as a nation, but most hard working people have failed to land on their feet like yourself. Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you are saying too, people should try and better themselves and not rely on the state. But you do seem to think because things worked out for you that rule can and should apply to every single person. And I'm smart, presentable, and hard working and there are no jobs paying 25k for just that
I'm not going to repeat stuff because its a waste of time. However two points, i dont know where people are getting this "im lucky" & "i've landed on my feet" bull. As ive said so many times now, ive worked hard to "get lucky" and "land on my feet". Secondly, go to london, get a job with one of the top two security firms (they will hire you if you're smart and presentable, theyre crying out for people like that) and work the shifts they give you. You will be on 20K+ in your first year, second year if you're good and work hard you'll be on between 25-30k. Its long hours but its not a hard job. The only requirement is that you have an SIA licence, with hardly costs a thing and often the company will pay it for you. My brother still works in that industry and is on around the 40k mark, he only works 14 shifts a month.
I saw this recently and it doesn't change one tiny bit how I consider privilege, but offer it as an example. And not saying at all that Lae is the guy on the LHS of the image - I'd place Lae in the middle. I do, however, feel there is a certain level of understanding that is perhaps missing. From here: http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate
@Aaron DC So just to clarify, after reading all my posts in this thread (or at very least the last two) you think i am somewhere in the middle of these two stereotypes? You think I relate equally to the LHS as I do the RHS? Seriously?
Attitudinally, yes. cf the final LHS panel with your posts: Less whinging, more hard work I say. I'm sick of people asking for handouts. Noone ever handed me anything on a plate. If you cannot see his words echoed in your posts, then it will come as a surprise to you, no doubt. You are projecting your own life experience onto every other person in the country, and demanding they have the exact same chance that you have. The pattern is set. You are unprepared to accept anyone had / has it tougher than you did / do. I'd bet big money you are wrong.
I came from a similarly poor background. I consider myself damn lucky that I was born with an aptitude for software / database development. At a time when I could fairly easily turn that into a career. From the outside it looks like I worked hard but all I know is I have enjoyed the challenges and the learning that my chosen career has afforded me. It is more like a hobby.
What I do know is that the very politicians with law degrees, etc, that are now boosting the cost of all degrees by orders of magnitude, received all their uni for free. In fact, there is video footage of those very same politicians protesting fee introduction whilst at university.
What I don't get about increasing university tuition fees from £3,000 to £9,000 is people are struggling to pay them back, and a large majority of them don't get paid for decades. So all the Tory government has really done is starting dishing out £6,000 extra which they don't have, and then find it doesn't get repaid. It could be argued that they're still investing in people and that will make up for it through society somehow, but how can it when there are no jobs? Especially jobs that are catered to graduates with specific skill sets. It's a complete contradiction. All that's going to happen is, in about 20 years, the government is going to find a huge hole where people haven't been able to pay back their student loans. And the Tories claim they've fixed the economy. Yeah right. Let me tell you something about the economy: it's like a giant boulder -- the type you see on Raiders of the Lost Ark -- and to get the boulder moving, you have to apply a lot of force. The force in this case is the massive austerity measures that Cammy, D. and the Downing Street Posse have put in place over the last 5 years. This will not only slingshot the economy (boulder) in the opposite direction -- causing all kinds of suffering along the way -- but they will have a hell of a time slowing it down again. Eventually it'll bounce back, only this time twice as hard. The economy oscillates; it's supposed to. That's why we have minor austerity to stimulate some oscillation whilst trying to control inflation. You need some for growth, but not enough to throw everything into chaos. So in a few decades, expect another recession that's probably even worse. By that time greedy bankers and politicians would have de-regularised the financial system again, arguing that they have it under control and it'll stimulate more growth, like they did last time.
Of course I can see the last panel is reflected in what ive written, and i whole heartedly agree with that last panel. However if one panel out of 11 relate to my experience how on earth does that make it me in the middle???? Also, how exactly am i projecting my own life experience onto every other person in this country? How exactly am i demanding they have the same chances? Have you even read my posts? Another thing, don’t presume you know I’m willing to accept. Apart from what ive written here (which I no way indicates that I think no one has had it worse than me) you know nothing about me, yet you say this stuff as fact?! I know people have it worse than me, I’ve known people that have had it far worse hence my original post (if you bothered to read it) about the slums in india, china, Africa, nepal etc etc. Again as I said in my original post, this isn’t me bragging this is me trying to make the point that the government doesn’t have to hand you anything, they have 65million people to look after, if the opportunities that you want, the ones that will make your life easy are not there then go out and find them or you put in the graft and try make them. It is not always that easy, im not an idiot, I understand this but we’ve created at system/situation where in the large majority of cases it’s ok to piss & moan about it rather than put the work in and get yourself out of the shit. The same situation where people are jumped on for calling it as it is.
You seem to be of the opinion that people are pissing and moaning about it, rather than putting in hard work? I'm curious where you get that impression?
Not only have I read them, I've quoted them very recently. Have you or have you not essentially said, "I did it, therefore so can you. Quit whinging." Because it certainly comes across that way.
No i havent, oversimplifying my argument detracts from the points i made. Whats that called again? Strawman argument? I've not really the time nor the inclination to carry on this debate if this is the sort of tactic people are going to employ (ignoring the blatant misrepresentation of what ive said by some people) From working with the general public for the last 13 years. From living in a poor area
I apologise for the oversimplification. It's not my intent to misrepresent or erect strawmen. When you write You can blame the government all you want but with hard work you get where you want to go vs I did it, therefore so can you. I'd like to understand how these are different?
I suspect that the government will eventually wash its hands of student debt and sell it off to a loan company who will then charge a premium rate for outstanding amounts and have the muscle to start knocking on doors.
One i consider a statement regarding the moaning people in general (i didn't feel the need to qualify that with "with the exception of special cases, disabilities or other more serious circumstances" as i feel that people would naturally assume some have it much much worse than others and therefore have a harder time progressing). The other an example supporting my point. I cant speak for other's personal stories as i only see the surface (friends that have gone on to do better etc). Again, i didn't feel the need to stress that not all situations are the same and that even if i could do it with any perceived disadvantage (or as this thread would have me believe, advantage) then that doesnt necessary mean that all people can. This i thought, was generally accepted. However, this doesn't detract from my original point. We seem way to eager to blame everyone else, blame the government, blame the fact its a Tuesday and everyone knows no jobs are available on a Tuesday, blame and shift the responsibility to someone else rather than take responsibility and make something happen. This, this is what infuriates me. I see genuine people that need help, then i see utter detestable lazy f**ks that love the sound of their voice so much that they tell everyone how hard life is for them because they dont get that 2nd, 3rd or 4th crack at a career or that they have now got to go to JSA courses! how dare they make people go to skills courses so that they can collect their JSA? how dare they! The government gives people an education, a chance to study at GCSE level, at college level and if an approved course then at uni level too! and all that for free bar uni when they will even pay upfront with an interest free(ish) loan! So after all that, people still moan that they cant then get the right help to change their career or retrain in a new profession even though they have already had 3 opportunities to GET said career. But noooo thats not enough, government should do more! makes me sick.
You would just love Atlas Shrugged. Good then. I see students who struggle, and students who are only there to flirt with girls and waste time. I don't help the people who reject my help. Part of my duties involves teaching learners with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, or learners who have suffered at the hands of abusers. They rarely have the same 'can do' attitude, and no wonder. Those people were, I'd say, very unlucky. Are you seriously suggesting these people care about any of those things? Get real. I've met students who see being chased by the police a badge of honour. I'm a teacher, and I work in a inner city college. You aren't the only one who has seen the ugly side of life, and sure I didn't grow up in it, I grew up in the bucolic Northumbrian countryside. Yet you say to a kid who is perfectly aware he can make more selling crack than trying to become a lawyer, but isn't getting any incentive or help to do the more civilized thing 'what about pride? And police chasing you after you?' They don't care, it's just part of that life for them. The question is why, and I don't know - I'm totally shut out of that world because I am from a rather privileged background. Good good. Well, in my neck of the woods a decent job is at least £30,000 per year, for my students it's any kind of job that pays better than the national minimum. It's different for different people. How about this, the student I mentioned before who has to walk 4 miles just to get to school because he can't afford the bus, and has to work shifts at Burger King because his single mother can't cover 3 people on a shop clerk's wages - herself and two teenagers. Do you think he deserves a little extra help to help himself? If you do then we don't really disagree here, if you don't then we are very different people.
I bet they'd like to, especially the Tories, but luckily they can't; there are too many legal implications involved.
Yes but where is the level ground? because i have none of the above afflictions im somehow lucky? I agree, they are unlucky but that doesnt make all those without these problems lucky. This is a problem in all of society. Anyway you suggested that the options for this kid was teaching or dealer, such idiots are rarely in the position to become a teacher hence my response. Had you made it clear the choice was between someone who was likely to either become a dealer or the "type to see being chased by police as see it as a badge of honour" my response would have been different. I would not have suggested pride etc. Again people jumping on ridiculous idea that i've even hinted that this was the case. I've not, you stated earlier that you were not from this background so i thought it worthwhile to point out the realities around "selling crack for 30k next week". You dont just go out and sell crack, and you dont go out selling 30k worth of crack. Echoing the above point, this arent really realistic realities are they. Its not exactly either law school or crack dealer.... Yes. It seems hes working hard as is his mother, hes getting his education no? he's bettering himself? I have respect for that. He's trying, working hard, that's what counts.
Then I guess this is a difference on the definition of 'lucky'. The point is that some people without help, and if they find it difficult to make it through the day, turn to crime to give them they money they can't have by more respectable means. I have worked with some of them who are doing their GCSEs while on probation, and I talk to them, I've heard their stories. I got the impression you said that with: If that's wrong, I'll take what you object to back. I don't know, one of my colleagues has students who are drug dealers - they don't make as much as they can because they are at college. A little street smarts can go a long way So then basically we don't have any real quarrel here. Mind, I cannot support the tory party that took ALS away from him, meaning he has to walk those 4 miles, which tire him for college, and then he has to work so many hours at Burger King. Honestly, I've given him £20 of my own money just to make his trip into college that week easier, because I want him to do well. I didn't need to do that, and really, it's not even my place to do that. There should be something in place to help kids like that - and I believe that with all my heart. Some of my fellow teachers have washed student's clothing, because they can't afford to do that themselves. Some students use the staff room microwave to heat their dinners, because they don't have one at home. This was poverty I wasn't even aware of until I got a job, and stepped down from the ivy tower a bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not really a huge fan of labour either.
I honestly dont know why people turn to crime for a living, is it because its easy? is it a peer pressure thing? I did a few silly things when i was younger but i never viewed it as a career, i always knew i would have better prospects (and im not only talking finances here) if i had a real career. I'm no fan of the rich getting richer, the higher echelons of society and all that crap but i'd like to think i have enough wits about me to realise i'll never beat them if i decided to become a crack dealer. A few friends fell the wrong side of this, three in particular i can remember quite clearly, two of them that ended up selling enough weed for it to be a problem, one ended up dying alone in the local park, the other in a cold concrete stair case two floors from his mum's house. The last had his little boy threatened before he realised its not worth it. If this doesn't wake people up then they have a problem. I found far to many kids on the estate were not criminals by necessity. Selling drugs is a little more complicated than people seem to make out, (this isnt really pertinent to the conversation but meh) i'm no dealer btw!! i've only gotten involved in one instance where i had to stop a family member making a mistake. I'm sure a few people on here know someone that sells a bit of weed, maybe even skunk. The problems come up when you start selling a lot of the stuff, other dealers start getting pissed that you're taking their profits or some other ridiculous notion. Which is what happened to the guys i mentioned above. The problem with cocaine is the cost and the punishment if caught, a box (not sure if that's what its called now) was 1kg, roughly 24k if it was decent stuff, you could cut that with whatever and get a hell of a lot more if you were a dealer or knew dealers. A sliver (again terms may have changed) was about £40. If i remember correctly that was about 5 grams but i might be wrong on that. Obviously crack is class A, if you were caught with a sliver you might get 18 months if they wanted to teach you a lesson. If you were caught with a box your looking at 10yrs+ Again not really pertinent to the conversation but you might find it interesting, i dunno. That's nice, i'm glad they have teachers that care.
