I don't really know how to describe extreme horror. It's just something I know when I see it. I guess it's just way more graphic and depraved? Matt Shaw books carry this kind of warning (which I think is a kind of advertising effort but you get the picture): WARNING: THIS IS AN EXTREME HORROR NOVEL. There is gore. There is bad language. There are scenes of a sexual nature. There are scenes of domestic abuse. But hidden underneath it all is also a chilling story. Please do not purchase this book if you are easily shocked, disgusted or offended. This book is not for you.
Hmmm... @Tenderiser maybe the genre you're referring to is 'Extreme Gore'? Does that exist, or can we make up genres in this thread too? hehe And I can probably find a few titles of 'dark romances/erotica' that fall into what you described. I have to say, generally extreme gore does not necessarily equal extreme horror to me. I judge the level of horror by the amount of chills I get and gore is just excessive grossness that makes me not want to eat my dinner. The idea of creepy awful things appearing or lurking around the perimeters of my consciousness is much more terrifying to me. @Mckk, appreciate your DM and will respond when I'm in a more serious frame of mind and I'm not cross eyed from exhaustion.
You should calm the thread "Romance Readers do X" since you were the Romance consultants/judging panel for @Cave Troll and myself.
Haha yeah I'm not as well read as I need to be on the classics, Lthough Asimov's "Foundation" Trilogy is one of my favorite things ever. I actually took a long break from botg writing and reading fiction after college due to time constraints and only got back to reading two or three years ago. But I'm a lifelong Trekkie and my dad has read ALL the big classics. We had boxes and boxes of old sci-fi around the house and I got early Heinlein novels for bedtime stories. A lot of of my reading since coming back has purposefully been recent Hugo/Nebula winners and nominees to catch up with where the genre is today, but Dune is one that's very much on the list for "catch up" purposes. It's just long so I'm going to have to plan when to go in, especially since Three-Body's super-long sequel "The Dark Forest" is also on my list.
@Commandante Lemming this thread just keeps reminding me of things I totally forgot. Like that box of old Sci-Fi novels I bought when I was at the Op shop! Didn't actually want to read them, I was just charmed by the retro covers. I love collecting vintage stuff. It's almost 3am here, and yes, I'm still up trying to do real work, but I ran over to the shelf to check out what authors they included. Yep, Asimov is amongst them, as is a few other Hugo and Nebula award winning authors. I was reading the blurbs and having a chuckle. One talks about 2006, and since that's come and gone and humanity hasn't progressed to space ships travelling to far galaxies or building a time machine, I guess they're a bit dated. I agree with Dune. I don't intend to read them all but I see the first book as a marathon. Need to do some warm up stretches, some mental stamina training, some psychological re-wiring and an attitude adjustment before I even attempt to read it.
Have fun and let me know how it is - and I do like seeing where old sci-fi missed the mark on things. It's part of the fun. Asimov's Foundation is beautiful and amazingly prescient in it's sociology - but the coal-powered spaceships are worth a laugh. That and anything involving planetary travel before we sent up probes is awesome. Some of my favorite stuff from Heinlein involved skating down the icy canals of Mars and slogging your way through the swamps of Venus (I love Old Venus in sci fi! Everyone assumed it was swampy with the clouds.)
I finally am at a computer long enough to listen (my weekends tend not to involve screen time other than brief checks on my phone). I did like Nanette kicking Greg - and loved your calling out Crusie and hoping she listens to this. And yes - the cathartic sex was a bit of a let down after the buildup. It was certainly an interesting scneario but...um...what was that with the donuts? Also your inner dialogue with your teenage self - "Details, woman, details!" Your critique of the sex scene was great because I just kind of let that sit. And PLEASE write that fan-fic where David gets what you think he deserves. I would laugh so hard at that! More comments on my next coffee break when I can finish. Oh wow...will...not...break down laughing in my office!
I have never quite recovered from that horrible wicked witch appearing at Snow White's window with that damn apple. I'm not ready to move on.
I believe it was Jurassic Park that scared the crap out of me as a kid (which I now love) - and "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade", the ending where the guy drinks from the wrong cup turned me off Indiana Jones for a while as a kid. Oh well.
2nd coffee break down. Dude - I am sorry for the pain and suffering but I'm looking forward to your takedown. I'll take the blame for picking the bad book out of the suggestion pile so if I get fried in the process I probably deserve that
What wicked witch? The first episode was about this girl called Hope, who was missing. Jessica found her and it turned out Hope was the latest victim of the psycho guy Jessica had encountered before (the main villain David Tennant). Jessica gets Hope back to her parents and tell them to get as far away as possible from this place. As the elevator door was closing, Hope pulls out a gun. Jessica races down the stairs to meet Hope and her parents on the ground floor. The lift opens to a male corpse - Hope's dad, covered in blood. Hope's mother lay dead inside the lift. Hope still held the gun, turns slightly to face Jessica and said, "Smile." Then she realises what she did and curls up on the floor, screaming. Her last words before Jessica left were, "Help me!" So. Damn. Creepy. Girl who played Hope was a hell of an actress though. The way she said 'smile' gave me the chills.
Oh it gets SOOOO much creepier. And the girl who played Hope did an awesome job doing...um...what she does at the end that I can't tell you about.
Watch that ending scene I just described, I dare ya You wouldn't happen to be talking about Snow White and the Huntsman? The one shot when the apple in her hand grew thick, black fur freaked the hell out of me. Possibly the only well-done moment in the whole film.
You can tell me, because I don't think I will continue. It's clearly a well-done piece of horror, but I prefer to be able to sleep at night!
@Mckk - Haven't you ever seen the original Disney Snow White movie? That's the one I mean. Most of us of a 'certain age' saw that movie, and its subsequent release on DVD meant a lot of younger people saw it as well. It wasn't just that she was horrible, it was the way she appeared—SUDDENLY, without warning. I jumped a mile and watched a lot of the rest of it with eyes half-shut.
I actually wouldn't classify it as horror. More like Mystery with a horror subplot - and not every episode is quite that creepy...although a lot of them are. This is how Hope's subplot ends.
@Commandante Lemming Oh I don't want to watch it! Visuals get burnt into my mind years afterwards. Just tell me @jannert aha Disney's Snow White! I have seen it. My sister rather liked it! The witch was a little creepy yes. I found the dripping green skull apple scarier! Or at least I remember that better than the witch appearing.
Kilgrave kidnaps hope after she gets out of jail and takes a bunch of hostages, who he lines up with nooses on orders to kill themselves if Jessica does anything to him...but he doesn't control Hope. And when Jessica shows up, Hope keeps yelling at Jessica to kill Kilgrave, but she won't because she wants to save everyone, including Hope. So, Hope sets things in motion herself by slashing her own neck with a busted wine glass - basically she sacrifices herself to remove the moral reasons not to kill Kilgrave. Killgrave orders all the hostages to hang themselves, which forces Jessica to save all of them rather than Hope (which was the point). Kilgrave bolts, all the hostages live, and hope bleeds out in Jessica's arms while begging her to kill Kilgrave (which she does).
How does slashing her own neck mean Jessica can kill Kilgrave? (Gather that's Tennant) So the guy does die at the end of season 1? Can't imagine who the main villain will be in season 2 then that would be creepier
Mind you, I think I was about 4 years old when I saw it the first time! I eventually bought the DVD here in Scotland, and the scariest part of the movie now is that horrendous screechy singing. Someday my prince will come ...aye, right.
The idea was that by killing herself, she removed herself as a victim in need of protection. Basically she ended her own hostage situation and made it a revenge operation instead of a rescue. Keeping Hope alive was the main reason for appeasing Kilgrave/Tennant, and appeasing Kilgrave was causing a lot of death. And yes, Jessica killed him at the end. I don't think the Season 2 villain can possibly be creepier, but they've set up a lot of really interesting questions about Jessica's origins, and they've set up a potential villain in terms of the government project that might have created a lot of "gifted" individuals - possibly including Jessica, Luke Cage, and Kilgrave.
Well, it's Wednesday....the final Wednesday of this project. And I'm not sure whether to feel relieved (yes!) or sad that this part of the discussion is over. It's been a lot of fun building a little community of people around this absurd book - although I'm sure @Cave Troll is just happy that he never has to see this book again. Actually, I'm wondering if he'd already set it on fire or run it through a wood-chipper. Or both. Probably both. Chapter 17 was literally about three minutes of brief epilogue detailing what happened to all of the characters, so I guess I'll just spend most of this post thinking about the actual experience, now that it's had a week to sit. I'm not sure I can say I necessarily enjoyed the book, although it had it's moments - but I think I did learn a bit from the experience. As for the Epilogue itself - which really should have been titled as such instead of Chapter 17 - it really was nothing more than a "Where are they now" sequence with a blip on each character, narrated in a very distant viewpoint. Cal and Min live happily ever after - so do Bonnie and Rodger, which at least is good. Nice touch having Tony eventually end up with Min's sister Diana, although it's a weird detail to throw into an epilogue without a ton of foreshadowing...honestly that would have added a fun layer of depth to the book. Liza keeps being Liza and doesn't need a man - okay, that suits her. Now for the kicker - EVERYBODY got a happy ending...including David and Cynthie. Cynthie eventually comes out of her depression, writes a book about LOSING Cal, and falls in love with her publisher. I can live with that - she's psychotic but knew when to give up. But David? No, David does not deserve to meet the subservient type of girl who can put up with his garbage, not have to change, and live happily ever after being his miserable little self. As @Cave Troll rightly noted in his most recent commentary, David is such a disgusting little man that he deserves to be beaten to death with a snow globe. That's not to say he couldn't be a redeemable character - it's just that he isn't a redeemed character at the ending of this book. He's an even more horrible person than when he started, and while idiots get what they want all the time in real life, this is a romantic comedy - and RomComs usually involve poetic justice. I wanted SOME poetic justice for David, and Crusie seems willing to forgive him without redemption. So that's the Epilogue. The whole book? Well, it was a ride. It certainly was frustrating at times, and as we were warned up front, quite light in it's content. Maybe too light, as @Cave Troll has repeatedly noted with his comments about it being almost consciously rated PG until the last chapter - which then felt weird because all of as sudden we had half-baked semi-bondage and chocolate icing everywhere. That's still a big WTF moment for me. That said, I'm not going to be quite as hard on it as I suspect @Cave Troll will be. I liked the level of complexity in the plot, the number of characters, and the multiple sub-romances in addition to the main pairing. I did like the side characters a lot - especially Liza - and I thought the villain team of David and Cynthie was fun, even if they didn't produce enough conflict for me to take them seriously. The emotional ride was also quite different than what I'm used to - and while a lot of the frustration did come from just being frustrated with the plotting and the lack of delivery on big moments - I do think a lot of it was also leveraged to keep the tension high. At some level, I think Crusie probably wants readers to be having the sorts of reactions we're having. What keeps you interested is the fact that the reader is sitting on the sidelines thinking, "Oh hell, just kiss her already!" It's a like the trainwreck that you can't look away from, and I don't think that's entirely accidental. I'm not sure I'll take much from this book on how to plot romantic subplots, which was part of the reason I read it. But I think there might be one or two things there about leveraging frustration as a tension builder that I'll think on. At some level, as an author, you kind of want the reader to have violent thoughts about you because of how much of a mess you've made of your characters' lives. I think Crusie overplayed that hand here, but a lot of good books do have that aspect. This one just turned it up to 11. There are a few things in particular that left me wanting more out of the book - some of them loose ends, and some of them just plot pieces I didn't like. The biggest being that nothing big happened with Cal's sister-in-law Bink. She just kind of dropped off, which is okay if she's a throwaway, but she wasn't portrayed as a throwaway. She was given a lot of really interesting description that made me curious about her mental state and what was going to happen to her. You all saw me agonizing, trying to figure out why she was giving me that ominous feeling of foreshadowed death - and in the end there was nothing there. She just kind of disappeared. Also, I kind of wanted Cynthie to actually pull of the villainous manipulation better than she did. Most of the characters saw right through her psychiatric psychobabble, and she got utterly played for a fool. I actually liked the idea of casting a professional dating psychologist as the villain in a Romance - that's as close to a superpower as you're going to get in this subgenre, and it's cool to put that on the side of evil. Honestly, I really wanted to see her pull off at least one major mind-game on Cal and Min before she was ultimately defeated. She actually was set up as an extremely competent villain, and she fell apart too easily. I wanted to see her at the peak of her powers, and I never got that. So, for me, it's a mixed bag. Overall, not my favorite read ever, but I did think it was an enlightening peek into world of "chick lit" - which, regardless of whether or not it's "good Romance" is a huge market with a lot of readers. Thinking about the what those readers want, which is radically different from what I want, was an interesting academic exercise - and while I'm not certain Crusie necessarily delivered, the question of HOW to deliver something satisfying within those expectations is worth looking at. We gave Crusie a lot of crap here, but I do think that it's really, really hard to deliver a great experience while avoiding a lot of the wiz-bang action and life-and-death stuff that the rest of us employ (including those who do heavier Romance). That doesn't mean I loved the book, but I do respect the level of difficulty in writing something like that. So - that's all I have. Interested to hear your feedback - and hoping that @Cave Troll isn't out in the middle of the desert somewhere, burning an effigy of Jennifer Crusie. Really had a lot of fun on this thread, and enjoyed getting to know all of you. Thanks a TON to @Cave Troll for muscling trough this thing - I hope you at least enjoyed how much we enjoyed watching you rip it to shreds. You are a trooper! And also thanks to @Mckk, @LinnyV, @Tenderiser, @BayView, and @jannert for making this thread awesome, even if the book wan't in any of your tastes. And lastly, I do have to thank @aikoaiko - who hasn't been on this thread but who was kind enough to provide the original suggestion for the book. Regardless of what we thought of the book, I honestly don't think this thread would have been as fun without this particular title. See you all around - this was frustrating as all heck, but I think the results were awesome!
Great analysis, @Commandante Lemming. I don't know that I would have had the staying power to get through this book, but I think you just provided a lot of insight into the topic of managing reader expectation. There is a lot of truth in this old saying: a great beginning will get readers to read your book, but a great ending will get readers to read your next one. Writers need to be careful not to leave characters 'behind.' Writers should make sure that foreshadowed events actually happen in some form. Unless it conflicts with the theme of the story, writers should give characters a fate they deserve.
