Aaron89, What you're discussing is basic structure and pacing of a novel. While each story has its own plot, and a proper pace, following a generalized pattern as a guide when planning the story can help keep it moving forward and on target for a reasonable length. Certainly no outline withstands the actual writing process without being altered, but an overall notion that "by 1/5 or 1/4 of the way through the novel, what's at stake in upcoming conflict should be known by the reader" isn't unreasonable. Terry
I have found this thread helpful, thank you. I like the guidelines and knowing them is very helpful. I've found without some structure to follow I end up rambling on and before I know it, I've typed thousands of useless words. The structure gives me some security in a way, a direction. I envy those writers who can sit down with no plan, no structure and produce a best seller but I think for most novice writers, like myself, a good set of guidelines is essential. Sorry, off topic, I know. I am responding to your queries of how structure would actually help a writer. I am saying for myself, I wouldn't be able to write without one. Most novice writers will say they feel restricted but I think you'll find those are the ones who really need it (oops! that was a huge generalisation *ducks for cover*)
and that means keeping your word count down to what publishers will pay for [80-100k for first novels by new and unknown writers]... go much beyond that and you'll only be wasting a lot of paper/ink/postage money... as for all that formula stuff being debated above, i don't see any benefit to be gained by applying screenplay rules 'n regs to writing novels... they're apples and oranges and what works for one won't necessarily work for the other... binding oneself to any formula when writing prose is counterproductive, imo... besides which, it totally stifles the creative mind, to have to be counting pages and making sure this or that is included before/after page number whatever... writing fiction must flow freely, not be measured and confined, made to conform to the restrictions of someone's formula...
Like DragonGrim, my stories tend to expand upon rewriting (and then get slightly shorter on a third line-by-line critique, but they're always longer than the first draft by the end). I'm worried about going over the 100k mark, which is about the limit for most genres, and not that great for fantasy.
On a submission guideline it said 80k is preferred but in some cases a longer one is fine. I did a word count to see where mine stands and it 119k+ I was in shock. I had given up on word count because I was checking it so often and stressing on it not being enough. I have started the sequel but now I am wondering if it will hurt my chances being so big. Is it unheard of for someone to get published for the first time with that amount?
No, it's definitely not unheard of, but most publishers aren't likely to take a chance on a large novel by a new novelist. Try to aim for that 75-100k range. Also, make sure the first novel stands alone (i.e. no sequels) since publishers aren't likely to take on a multi-novel deal by a new writer.
No it's not unheard of. With SF and Fantasy, I think it may be a little easier, but your story is not that far off what is generally the target size. My fantasy novel, Flank Hawk was accepted and it is 127,000. Throughout the submission process, it made it out of the slush pile three times from the proposal stage (--cover letter, synopsis, first three chapters), and the length was clearly stated in the cover letter. The first two publishers eventually passed, but the third publisher accepted. The rejection by the earlier two larger markets did not mention length as a concern in their decision. My SF novel is also longer than the 'standard.' It made it out of Tor's slush pile but was eventually rejected (okay, rejected sounds kind of harsh, so we could say passed on ). It is currently out of the slush pile at Baen and on the Executive Editor's desk awaiting a read and decision. With Tor, length was not mentioned as an issue. So, approx 120,000 words with fantasy may not be a problem, but with other genres it may be more of a hurdle. As an aside, cinnim0ngirl, I would write something other than a sequel to your first novel. Maybe get the storyline down and write the first few chapters (many authors do that to keep the flow and characters, and make it easier to pick up on down the road), but if your first novel doesn't sell, it may be quite difficult to sell the second novel, and near impossible if it doesn't stand completely on its own (without the first). Just my two cents. Good luck! Terry
I'm not saying to count pages. But when working out the plot it is helpful to have a structure to follow. Once you begin writing, the story takes on it's own life, but a life that just happens to pretty much follow the structure, at least from the novels I've analyzed.
It is a fantasy/horror so that is good to know. The way I ended it works because it can be just the one or pick up and be more. I thought that would interest them, that it can go on. I hadn't looked at it from the other POV, so thank you for pointing that out Terry In my query then, would it be best to say first novel and leave it at that? Or something like first novel with open end? Sorry for all the questions, I am so new to everything other than the writing part lol. Thanks to everyone for your answers and suggestions by the way.
You simply indicate what type of novel it is and length. You don't need to mention planned sequels, etc. If your novel is accepted, one of the first questions from the editor will probably be something along the lines of: "What else are you working on or plan to write?" That is when the notion/discussion of a sequel would come into play. If possible you don't want to write a first novel with too many loose ends. The novel should stand on its own and be a satisfying read to the reader (and of course the first readers being agent and editors). It's not like the POV character has to die, finalizing everything...but it should not be like a television show's end of the season cliffhanger--tune back next season to find out what happens. Terry
I think the final word count for my first novel is around 89,000 words. I have to go back and add a chapter, so that might put it at 91,000 or so, but then of course I might be removing some stuff. No idea yet. Anyways, don't think about length or anything while you're writing. It's just too distracting. When I was getting up to the 60k mark I was like "OMG, I don't even have the end in sight yet and I'm running out of space!!!" and then I said "Screw it, I'm just gonna write the best chapters that I can and see what happens" and lo and behold, the length came out perfectly.
That is where experience can come into play. It has for me writing short stories, and to a lesser extent novels (as I've written far fewer of them as opposed to short fiction). When planning out the storyline, beginning to end, and the events and characters to get from one to the other, after having done it a few times, the writer can get a feel for how much writing it is going to take to tell the story. Terry
i wouldn't mention that it's your 'first' novel... why would you want to let them know you're a beginner?... you'll have a better chance of succeeding with the query, if they don't think of you as an amateur right out of the box...
