Everyone I know who reads fantasy faces the real world and its problems just fine. Better than most, in many cases.
This is a years old debate. Believe it or not, a few of you have made points that I've taken to heart. For example, yes, all fiction is escapism by definition. Then, as @jannert had very eloquently pointed out to me, once, not only do you have mythology, like Beowulf, but you have staple fantasies that have heavily incorporated mythology, like Lord of the Rings. I myself have pointed out that fantasy can be used for thought experiments and philosophy (for example Kafka) in a way that other genres can't. So where does escapism fall into this? Mythology does not have to be believable--it has transcended that. Thought experiments don't have to be believable, because we're using an abstraction for mental exercise. So why does, say, a fantastic world with wizards and dragons, have, to be believable? This is a special kind of escapism that many staple fantasy readers and writers demand out of their fantasy. The world cannot be real--it must be fantastic-- but it also must be so believable, so internally consistent, that you could almost see yourself there, and that, is the essence of an escapism that is largely reserved for fantasy and one I find ridiculous. It is a wish fulfillment type of escapism and inherently silly. A realistic impossible world. Talk about oxymoron. Guys, escapism is a matter of degree. A Midsummer Night's Dream does not take it's fantasy seriously. That's cool. It's also a play you finish in a night. Wheel of Time takes itself very seriously. You've got every trope imaginable in the series. An orphan farm boy becomes the most powerful and most important man in the world. He's got beautiful immortals trying to seduce him and three beautiful women in love with him. He's got a destiny and loyal friends. He's got a prestigious arch nemesis. Despite all this, or perhaps because of it, the world desperately tries to be believable. The emotions of the characters are deeply explored in this fundamentally unbelievable and masturbatory plot and setting. Not only that. You get literally thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of this spanned over years worth of books. That's not just escapism as a form of entertainment, it is a wish fulfillment/anti-reality form of escapism, different from humor, different from thought experiments, different from mere amusement. You don't necessarily only find this in fantasy but you find it in a lot of fantasy. Not just wheel of time. Song of Ice and Fire, which I've also read, is largely the same thing. Song of Ice and Fire expands the Wheel of Time wish fulfillment and adds some depth--because we don't live in a black and white world and only some things 100% exemplify an argument. Song of Ice and Fire gives us a large ensemble of characters, and not all of them are Rand Al Thor. But there is certainly a thread of perfection that extends through many of the characters, especially those of noble heritage, and completely encapsulates a few, like Danaery's and Jon Snow, both who find themselves favorably mired in destiny, powers, including armies, inheritance, and as is core to any fantasy wish fulfillment, admiration from those around them. Song of Ice and Fire is not just wish fulfillment escapism. There is legitimate intrigue and soap opera, which are I consider more general entertainment. Harry Potter gets a pass because it's geared for children, otherwise, I could also point out the same wish fulfillment tropes. Chosen one, inheritance, grand powers, and admiration of his peers. Even Harry Potter, who is from what appears to be our world, is very strongly distinguished from anyone in our world, by his direct contrast with the obese, angry, and outwardly normal Dursleys, who torture him when he is in their "normal" home. Someone mentioned Steinback's of Mice and Men. Excellent example of escapism that is not wish fulfillment. You can find this to some degree in fantasy. Thomas Covenant, which I've brought up before during these arguments, uses fantasy for purposes other than wish fulfillment escapism, which is the worst possible escapism there is because it is purely masturbatory and offers nothing in emotional or mental nourishment. Thomas Covenant is from our time, and he is a leper. His real world life sucks and he is a very despicable person. The perfection of the fantasy world he is sucked into is not used for wish fulfillment escapism because Thomas Covenant cannot escape himself. In fact, the "perfect world" he is sucked in is almost depicted as childlike and juvenile, which I think is very poignant, and probably how I would imagine a fantasy medieval based world if I were sucked into it. You could almost argue he takes wish fulfillment escapism and destroys it. Gormenghast is another example of non wishfullment fantasy. It uses castle life to attack ideas of hierarchy. It's true main character, so popular among readers we have a WF user here who uses it for a screenname, is born a scullion, is liked by none, and meets bad ends. Gormenghast does not have the typical fantasy tropes--no magic--and Thomas Covenant views them entirely through a real and miserable person lens--this is fundamentally different fantasy than Song of Ice and Fire, Wheel of Time, and Harry Potter, the latter three which you'll find on most top ten fantasy lists, unlike the first two. Nobody here has to agree with me. This is my view on escapism in fantasy. It's not 100% black and white. To some extent, it is subjective, and often a matter of degree.
Jon Snow is largely loathed throughout the vast majority of the books by the characters around him, getting multiple people killed and meets a bad end. Danerys is literally sold off, has her first husband whom she is in love with die, and is later forced to marry someone she does not love, before being forced to leave or otherwise be murdered. Furthermore, both books critique things like sexism and racism.
Have you ever heard of PTSD? Have you ever read about what it does to people? I found an essay a while back about how every single Harry Potter book explores a different aspect, from blaming yourself for the actions that other people inflicted on you to not knowing how to accept help from the people around you: https://mashable.com/2016/02/11/harry-potter-ptsd/#olunxtaaGSqu
I read the first four. Jon Snow, Daenarys both have bad people who loathe them, just like Cinderella. This doesn't change the fact that both of them gain great armies and are admired by their supporters and are meant to be admired by the readers. I didn't read the one where Jon Snow meets a bad end, but, according to Martin, Jon's Snow fate is not yet sealed, so we'll see with him. As for Daenary's, I see you fogotten the part where she also takes on a (from Wikipedia) "confident and seductive warrior" as a secret lover. She also owns dragons. And has violet colored eyes and silver hair... Show me a fantasy protagonist that grows up as a smith, marries the plain daughter of a local tailor, and dies of old age at 40.
You ever hear of Toni Morrison? "If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it" You have characters, a setting, and an ending that you'd be interested in a story about. Can you think of a plot that you'd also consider to be interesting? As it is – a straight-up romance story – that sounds as boring to me as a fantasy story as it would sound to me as a non-fantasy story, but if that's the kind of non-fantasy story that you'd be interested in, then it sounds like that would also be the kind of fantasy story that you'd be interested in.
Jon's army isn't an army. It's a group of former criminals pressganged into maintaining The Wall. Of which they can maintain 3 castles, with the largest having 200 men. So, he has less than 600, and if they attempt to do anything away from the wall, they are to be executed. This is clearly a formidable army. As for Danery's, you mean that a character is attracted a person who is confident and seductive, and has an affair with them? That clearly has no basis in any sort of reality. As for the appearance, that's because Danery's is aimed at being a deconstruction of the overall "royal reclaiming their throne" trope. The entire series of books are deconstructions. But for a deconstruction to work, it has to be established first.
Read KJ Parker. The Company is a fantasy story about some ex-soldiers who, after the war, take their families away to an island where they stashed some gold during the war. Of course, once there interpersonal conflict, greed, suspicion, etc. make it all a lot less than what they’d though it would be. No magic. No heroes. No great armies. Just flaws human beings trying to deal with a secret and with one another.
That scene where Danaery's was being masturbated by her handmaiden did not feel very deconstructive...Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.
Also, mentioning KJ Parker, his Engineer books. A man who is a member of a society that has some engineering technology living in a place where the locals are still far behind. The Engineers have a guild that is very restrictive. The man commits sins of curiosity and creativity (making a toy for his daughter) and he and his family are punished. He flees to the locals and starts teaching them engineering, planning to use them to get back at his own people. No magic. No monsters. No heroes. A story of what happens to a man who thinks he’s one kind of person until his life is taken away and a desire for vengeance on those who hurt him turns him into a completely different kind of person.
Maybe. As I’ve said above, this real force behind the anti-fantasy people in this thread is a lack of awareness of the breadth of work in the genre. It’s not 1960 anymore.
Disagree on both accounts. One. I've already mentioned various fantasy that doesn't follow the mainstream mold. Gormenghast, etc. Two. The most masturbatory and escapist fantasy is highly modern. I'd say all the drama and angst that you see in these chosen one medieval fantasy type novels, of which you have to agree there is a massive abundance, is a fairly new addition.
1984 had a sex scene. Do you consider 1984 to be lower-quality fiction than it would've been without one? What about Brave New World?
Guys, I've said this before. If I had my way. I would restructure genre labels. There would be general fiction, which would include most lit fic and probably many of the novels Steerpike has been alluding to, and then there would be Romance, which would include most romance novels today and many of the mainstream fantasy, that way, we would just have one giant genre for when you want to just fantasize.
Even if we allow this, for the sake of argument, I don’t believe this is even the majority of what’s is being published in fantasy these days.
It would be hugely beneficial to all of you debating with me on this thread, who obviously read/write highbrow fantasy that is different from your typical Wheel of Time novel, and are tired of being stereotyped against.
I've stopped reading fantasy for a while. It's possible things have changed in the last decade and a half, especially if you separate modern fantasy from modern YA.
One scene does not devalue the rest of the work. Even then, it could be argued that was targeting the whole idea of a chaste maid, or serves to characterise Danery's.
YA is a genre I really despise due to the fact it always says the same thing due to having a constantly replenishing audience.
What about all the escapist wish fulfillment thrillers, spy novels, et al? Do you regard James Bond as the height of mature literary commentary?
Never read James Bond. If it's like the movies, it's probably escapism and wish fulfillment. The main difference would be in the setting, which has not been reduced to a superficially medieval setting that ignores physics, and the also the lack of melodrama. Definitely a matter of degree.
SOIAF is certainly a crowd pleaser. It's got its Daenerys and Snows but it also has it's Breannes and its Tyrions. I think the book excels at giving readers some more mature ideas while keeping enough of the juvenile tropes to ensure sales.
Think of it as a more sophisticated form of The Hardy Boys series, with a British Ladies man instead of late teen/early twenties brothers.
