And before you start plugging away about the obviousness of cowboys, cows, horses, dust, mesas, banditos, etc., that is not the kind of thing I mean. What I mean is: Lots of things that aren't remotely Western get called that. Star Trek is one of the most well-known I can think of, often called "Wagon Train to the Stars", but I was just reading an article about the mega-expensive flop, Waterworld. They call it an "aquatic Western" in the article. So, when stripped of all the typical props and stage sets, what (in your opinion) is it that remains in this (or any) narrative that makes it still a Western starring Kevin "Fishboy" Costner?
I feel a "western," whether set in space or in the late 1800s U.S. west, has a frontier element to it. The structure of civilized society, its laws and customs, don't have a firm grip yet. The stories may be about people working to bring those civilized aspects to bear, or about how they operate to achieve some goal (e.g. justice) without that framework in place.
I don't remember the movie all that well, aside from him flipping around through the rigging and sliding down a sail, but here's a guess— Lawless frontier society, possibly with a very small-town form of sheriff and deputies, or with everyone packing and creating their own version of justice Indigenous people who can attack savagely or become allies if approached respectfully Hard living, everyone must be tough as nails Plateaus Ridiculously loud ricochet sounds, even off of sand
In the water world context its the 'one good man (white hat optional) standing between the innocents and a band of savage outlaws' trope (see also the postman)...
One's ought to differentiate between the classic westerns here and the Italian spaghetti westerns. I feel most western tropes were introduced during the golden age of the latter. This means: - Grand duels with tumbleweed rolling by - The very music we consider "western", RIP Morricone. - The character archetypes; the tragic lonely hero in western - All the betrayal & revenge stories as a main plot - Large focus on Mexican bandits / themes / raiders / characters and the Mexican wars - A faux depiction of the western era/world focusing solely on the very south of the west. Of course, a lot of the above had very logical reasons. All the Spaghetti Westerns were shot in rural Spain, which is why they feature none of the mid-west and mostly Mexico/Mojave-like aesthetics, and the abundance (and low cost) of Spanish extras is the reason for the unusual amount of Mexican characters & themes. On the other hand, you have the works of Karl Friedrich May that - at least to me - serve as the "true western". Possibly because my first western ever was Der Schatz im Silbersee when I was in elementary school. His works deal mostly with the great romantic wilderness (as seen on Bierstadt paintings) and the modern man's interaction with it. It deals with native Americans and the tensions as well as the friendships between explorers and their communities. Winnetou is likely the most famous/known native american character in fiction. Old Shatterhand is also the prime "Western character" free of the spaghetti western tropes. Gotta remember though that Karl May didn't ever visit the USA before he wrote his books. The true irony; the stereotypical American genre defined by Italian movies shot in Spain and a German's books claiming personal account but purely fiction. Or at least, defined in common conscious.
Well, speaking of spaghetti westerns, A Fistful of Dollars was a remake of Kurosawa's Yojimbo, and The Magnificent Seven of The Seven Samurai. So the Japanese films could arguably be classified as Westerns. Or perhaps Easterns.
I have heard in a way that the original Robocop was a Western, due to the elements of it and how it played out. Even the theme music is considered to be more Western-like.
I've heard the space-opera series Firefly referred to as a Western in Space. I guess there are similarities in some respects. I think what bothers me most is when any novel set anywhere west of the Mississippi is called a 'Western.' When, in fact, a Western is an actual genre of books, with its own formula to follow. "Western" as a genre is not just its setting. It's the same as calling any story that contains a love story somewhere in it a 'Romance.' Or a story containing something puzzling a 'Mystery.' Readers of genres expect a certain type of story—with similar characters, similar situations and similar outcomes to others within the genre. I'm seeing this widening of the Western genre definititon happening more and more—and it's starting to refer to any story set in the West, no matter what happens in the story. It's making the Western genre into something so vague that it's losing its identity. If it's not formula-based (and I'm not using that in a disparaging way, just describing what genre Western readers expect from the story) then it's not a Western. In my opinion, anyway. I simply refer to non-genre stories laid in the Old West as 'a story laid in the Old West.' These would include: Old Yeller, Little House on the Prairie, The Big Sky, Old Jules, O Pioneers. Then there are the more modern stories 'laid in the West': Brokeback Mountain, A River Runs Through It, The Horse Whisperer, Dream Wheels, Indian Horse, etc. I would classify the following authors as actual genre Western writers. They do follow a predictible formula : Zane Grey Louis L'Amour Elmer Kelton Jack Schaefer Calling everything set in the West or the Old West a 'Western' makes as much sense as calling everything set east of the Mississippi an 'Eastern.' Or anything set in the UK a 'Britisher.' @Wreybies has actually made my point for me. It's requirements of the GENRE itself—not the location or time period—that the stories he mentions are being compared to.
But again - and to reiterate the original question since things are tracking back to actual Clint Eastwood in chaps - the term "Western" gets applied to stories that have nothing to do with either the actual or perceived era, geographic location, or any of the visually representative trappings, which gives rise to the idea that there is an underlying thread (or threads) of thematic or archetypal structures that continue to exist and are recognizable even when passed through a completely different wardrobe and sets department. That's what I'm looking for.
I’ve heard that Gene Roddenberry has pitched Star Trek as a Western to get it produced. I loved reading the replies to this thread. Except for the Star Trek series as a ‘foot in the door’ move, my concept of Westerns is the setting and context of living off the bare necessities of the land. As much as I can appreciate Kevin Costner as an actor, Waterworld just hasn’t grabbed me yet. Yes, all of the Morricone/Eastwood movies are classic Westerns, just like Little House on the Prairie and I guess you could add Daniel Boone and Old Yeller. I even like the terminology of ‘Easterns’ to address the samurai equivalent to Westerns. So while I have my own preconceptions of Westerns of having the standard cowboys and horses, setting in the late 1800s and back, and good guy/bad guy elements, I have to agree that thinking more broadly about the ‘Western’ genre, and expanding it, the following could be trope to this new concept: - a setting of a small community trying to survive in an unknown and/or untamed environment - an antagonist trying to exert control over said community - a protagonist rising to defend his/her community or personal world from said protagonist With that being said, I guess I could argue that Alien is a ‘Space-tern’.
This is an excellent description of what the classic Western genre contains. I can't see Little House on the Prairie or Old Yeller fitting in here. https://wolfpackpublishing.com/7-western-tropes-never-get-tired/
Using this as thematic guide, my current piece, Opal, is 100% a Sci-Fi Western. One of the very first things that gets introduced is the Trusty Steed™ in the form of a diprotodon named Lulu. BTW, I chucked the old prologue you read a while back and am in the process of completely rewriting it. The old prologue has been folding into Chapter 1.
This is a good breakdown, in my opinion, from the article I quoted above: It's easy to see how some sci-fi and other kinds of stories can be referred to as Westerns in ....wherever. It's that morality play thing. And in a classic Western, the good guys always win. Just as in a Romance, the 'two' always get together at the end. And a Mystery always gets solved.
And those who weren't either needed to be protected along with the women and children or were themselves the outlaws that everyone needed protectin' from (and some it's hard to tell which they are until the bullets start flying). It was definitely a paradigm of rugged individualism taken to the limit, but there were also little bands of people forming communities and trying to set up functional governments and The Law, to usher in Civilization.
True. Old Yeller and LHOTP lack the typical elements of Westerns except passing aspects here or there. They only have the temporal aspect, which I snow think can be ‘toyed’ with. This list is very helpful.
The only thing they have in common with a genre Western is setting and time period. Most of Agatha Christie's Mystery novels are set in small villages in England during the late 40s and 50s. That doesn't mean every story set in a small English village during that time period is a Mystery.
Thinking about @Wreybies 's point (sorry if I've been derailing your thread) I began to compare the Firefly Sci-Fi series with the Western genre. Yeah, I can see why it's often referred to as a Western in space. You've got a bunch of 'good guys' living on a frontier (in a futuristic 'space,' with cultural connections to Earth), who are having trouble with the local establishment. They 'rob' various institutions in order to keep food on their table, but they only take from 'bad guys' or oppressive institutions. They often rescue or give help to ordinary folks who are in need of it. They just lost a war and are trying to find their feet afterwards. (Many of the characters in classic Westerns are southerners—usually Texans—who fought in the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy, and who feel aggrieved at having lost, and are trying to rebuild their lives in a place where the war doesn't really count any more.) The characters have a whole world to roam in, but they operate on the fringes of it. Partly because they like the notion of independence, and partly because they aren't welcome within 'polite society.' They do rescue women in distress on several occasions (with varying results.) There is a good guy preacher with a mysterious and possibly shady past. There is a prostitute with a heart of gold. A couple of them, actually, in one particular episode that is so 'Western' it even LOOKS like one. They do have a couple of powerful, vengeful enemies, who are 'out to get them' and appear more than once, even in such a short series. The 'law' is not on the side of the Firefly crew, so they have to create their own 'law.' They do operate within that law, though, and their law is set up to treat everyone within their society fairly. And they have a pecking order, with Captain Mal Reynolds as the 'sheriff' and his extremely capable deputy Zoë Washburn marshalling the law, when needed. Besides business rivals (other 'ranchers') and personal enemies, there are neutral dangers 'out there' that must be outwitted, beaten, or faced down. (The Reivers ...a scary bunch of entities that might or might not be 'human' that attack out of nowhere. This performs the function of Indian attacks in Western books ...no real attempt to understand them as individuals or to discover why they behave the way they do. The Reivers sometimes directly attack, but are sometimes also just a threat that might materialise at any time ...a threat to all the denizens of that frontier world, not just Mal and his crew.) Because this is a series, and not a stand-alone book, the stories are always slightly open-ended. But each one ends with the 'good guys' winning the day. The series creators were happy to have it thought of as a Western in Space. I think there was a lot of attention paid to creating that very vibe. It's a fantastic show. One of my favourites (next to Farscape.) The characters are really well-drawn, even the baddies. And because it got cancelled after the first 11 episodes, it never jumped the shark. A little piece of TV perfection.
I’ve only seen the movie Serenity from the Firefly series, but your post reminds me of the anime Cowboy Bebop, which most of the episodes end with the phrase, “See you in space, Cowboy.” The crew is an unlikely group bounty hunters that consists of a former police officer, a former mafia hit man, a con-girl, an enigmatic computer wiz-kid, and a dog. Each of them has a history that is slowly revealed through the series and they usually win their chase but never the actual bounty. Because of their histories they also love on the fringe of society and their collectiveness as a ‘group’ is held together by the proverbial string of happenstance.
Hailing from a high society Louisiana family. What drove Delantri from the family estate outside New Orleans is a secret Delantri is happy to keep sealed with the help of his trusty Colt revolver.
