Novel What will make your book stand out from the crowd?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by GingerCoffee, Apr 17, 2015.

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  1. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Thank you for the heads-up response. I admit that I haven't been looking recently at the idea of traditional publishing, because I was so put off the process when I did investigate the idea several years ago. You've half persuaded me to have a go. :)

    I think I missed the link to that NYT article you've just mentioned. Any chance of giving the link again, or letting me know where I could go to find the original link?

    I must admit that my biggest concern is the length of my novel. It has been crafted to be the length it is. It's been cut from the original first draft of 312,000 words during the editing process, and is now at 210,000. It has been edited and edited and edited again. I now have a story I am proud of. I would not be prepared to cut it in half to reach the 100,000 word mark, which seems to be the upper limit that's acceptable for a first-time author who isn't writing fantasy. That would wreck the pace I've set, and change the tone entirely. I'm not prepared to do that, simply to achieve a word count.

    If anybody thinks parts of my story don't contribute, that's fine—I've had umpteen beta readers who have made me rethink and redo aspects of this kind of thing. But the minute I tell a prospective agent that my book is 210,000 words long, I'm sure it will go straight into the reject pile. Unless, as you say, the long novel is, indeed, experiencing a resurgence. That would be fabulous. For me as a writer, but also me as a reader. I LOVE long books!

    Did I mention, I'm old-fashioned!
     
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  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    thank you ...I'll go have a read at it....

    Right, I've read the article and the book sounds promising. I'll probably buy it when it's officially published in October.

    However, the author was already a well-known writer for several NY magazines and newspapers. I doubt he had to dance around getting somebody to look at it. He was certainly not a 'nobody.'

    Here are three links to three reputable sites that deal with word count. Not promising at all, at least not for me. One of them actually states that if your word count exceeds what the agents want, they will automatically reject you without reading further.

    I'm leaning back toward my original position. Self-publishing! But thanks for the perspective, @BayView !


    http://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blogs/guide-to-literary-agents/word-count-for-novels-and-childrens-books-the-definitive-post

    http://www.writerstype.com/articles/novellength.asp

    http://www.literaryrejections.com/word-count/
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
  4. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Your book doesn't sound as "out there" as you seem to make it sound - "Am I my brother's keeper?" is a pretty common theme. I honestly don't see, from your own description of the book, what it is about your story that makes you think it fits absolutely nowhere at all. Seems to me you have a very precise idea of your book, as you would since you're the author, and you're failing to see how others might see it, what other kinds of potential other people might see in it. That perhaps it's a book an agent would absolutely love - just because that agent hadn't recently sold a book exactly like yours simply isn't a good argument to saying "They'll never be interested!" I'm with BayView on this - I don't think you need to find another book exactly like yours. In fact, it's about having enough similarities to a genre that keeps the readers comfortable, while having that something different about it that makes it worth selling. By that logic, I'd say it's promising that you haven't found a book that's exactly like yours.

    In another post you wrote to BayView, again you say you're "sure" agents would bulk the moment they see the length of your book. It's a very self-defeating philosophy. You've done your research, saw that it looked a bit bleak, and decided not even to try - that's essentially how it looks from all the responses you've written in this thread regarding the topic. And personally, I don't think that's a very good reason at all to forgo traditional publishing.

    In truth, your book sounds like it'd simply fit into General Fiction. Why does it have to be historical fiction just because it's set in the 19th century? Send your MS out to both historical fiction agents and general fiction agents.

    Think of Wolf Hall - plenty of readers complained and gave it a bad review because they expected bodice rippers from a historical novel. Whatever they were expecting, they weren't expecting a book that was actually true to history. I know you don't like Wolf Hall, and I haven't read it myself (not into historical fiction), but I do know Wolf Hall has won book prizes and is recognised in the literary world. Here' s a book that defied the conventions of its own genre and not only was traditionally published, but was immensely successful.

    Sure, there are certainly agents who would bulk at the length of your novel. So just pitch your book to agents who have a record in selling books of a similar length as yours. I really don't see what the problem is?

    It just seems like you're not trying traditional publishing because you've made the presumption that no one would ever be interested. You keep using words like "dance around" for the agents like you have to entertain them like a puppet on strings and do their every bidding. Again, as I said before, I don't think agents are a bunch of nasty critters cackling and rubbing their hands dreaming of ways to make you jump through hoops of fire and chop your beloved book to pieces.

    To me, it honestly sounds like you're a little bitter towards the traditional publishing market, for little reason other than reading around the subject without actual experience of the industry, and your book has been such a labour of love that you dare not risk it with anyone, for anything because you fear so much that agents will change your story and turn it into something it is not and should never be.

    But Jannert, the agent wouldn't take the book on in the first place if she didn't think the story was good - so what makes you think they'll try and make you change it to the extent that you seem to fear? And if the agent believed in the book - and she should if she's taking it on - then she'll be working alongside you for your vision of the book, because that's the vision she saw in the manuscript and loved. We're not saying take on any agent who would have your book, chop and slice your book up till it makes someone else happy - not at all. But the value of the right agent, I think, is invaluable. And the right agent is the one who sees what you're trying to do, or have achieved, and loves what she sees - such an agent would not be asking you to chop and dice your book. Such an agent would be eager to give you the tools to do any further polishing it might need that you and other betas have missed due to a lack of experience.

    Of course, none of this guarantees anything and as you say, there isn't much time left - you don't have 20 years to waste chasing after agents. But what's the harm in giving it a go for 2-3 months? As you yourself say, marketing is a skill in its own right and from your posts, you don't strike me as someone who's gonna market it much. The book is a labour of love you would simply like to release into the world for the few people who discover it to love and enjoy, rather than the start of a career necessarily. Based on this, I assume you're not gonna waste all that much time, nor money, in marketing the book. And with traditional publishers, you wouldn't have to invest in that direction. So why not give it a go?

    2-3 months. I'm not saying forever. I don't think it's wise to wait forever either. But 2-3 months - you've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain, in my opinion.

    Now if your reasoning is simply that you don't want anyone else other than yourself to own the book (the rights to it, that is), then self-publishing makes full sense. I just wouldn't forgo traditional publishing based on presumptions that they'll surely bulk at the length.
     
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Balk.

    I like the ideas, Mckk, but... balk, not bulk. You're giving me images of agents lifting weights and getting really muscular!

    ETA: Or, as I discover as I feverishly search to make sure I haven't just corrected someone who was using an acceptable variant, "baulk".
     
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  6. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    :superlaugh: I'm just gonna leave my typo there cus it's too funny hehehehe

    pic.jpg
     
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  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Thanks for all the encouragement, guys. I'll definitely do a search and see if anybody fits. It's the length that's a big problem, though, @Mckk. Take a look at my three links. They all stipulate length as being not over the 100,000-ish word mark, and they say agents will automatically reject anything that's much over. I'm twice over. This is not me being negative or precious about my story. This is me being realistic.
     
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  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    LINK BATTLE!!!

    Because my links showed three books that clearly got picked up despite being over the limit.

    The length makes it challenging, for sure. It may be an auto-reject from some agents. But you only need one agent to say yes, right?
     
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  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I can't believe you found the perfect image that quickly! You're an image-finding-genius!
     
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  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Ha ha! I don't fancy a battle, so I'll slink off, tail between legs.

    Honestly, I do appreciate your efforts, and I promise I WILL see if there are any agents out there who look as if they're openminded to my story. You've actually given me a bit of hope, where before I had none. And a few ideas as well.

    It only takes one row of numbers to make you a multi-millionaire in the lottery, and every so often somebody does come up with that number. I admit it. It could be ME. All I need to do is keep buying the tickets. Right? You can't win, if you're not in....
     
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  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I have a lottery ticket in my bag as we speak. I'm not planning my retirement around it, but... it's fun to have, anyway.

    And after spending so long perfecting your book, it would be a shame to not at least give it a chance at wider distribution. Not that self-publishing is the end of the line or anything, but can you imagine going into a book store in some mall somewhere and seeing your book on the shelf? It'd be worth a lot of aggravation, I'd say.
     
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  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Of course, you see more and more books on the shelves in bookstores nowadays that started out self-published. The old, and now no longer valid, idea that if you self-publish a book it is the end of the road in terms of ever getting it traditionally published needs to be set aside once and for all.
     
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  13. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Do you? I see a very few books on the shelves in bookstores that started out self-published. I'm not saying there are none, but I've actually read commentary from publishing insiders saying they think it's going to become a less common path in the future b/c most of the self-published success stories seem to burn through their markets while they're self-published and inexpensive, leaving not much interest for after they're picked up and pro-published.

    I mean, I'm not psychic, I can't predict the future, but in terms of setting ideas aside once and for all? I'm going to hang on to the idea that the best way to get into bookstores is still traditional publishing.
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think the opposite is more likely to happen, and it will become more popular. There have been quite a few such stories lately. An author I know through social media and a separate working relationship had a self-published book I read around a year ago that has since been picked up by Harper Voyager. You've got the whole 50 Shades thing. The Martian, one of the top SF books from last year, was originally published for free on Wattpad, then self-published on Amazon, and then picked up by a traditional publisher. Hugh Howey is another example. Michael Sullivan's Riyria books, &c.

    A lot of the traditional publishing commentary on this that has been negative reminds me of a lot of the insider stuff I heard a few years ago from content producers about online / streaming / on-demand video markets. Of course, the old guard turned out to be totally wrong on that and now they're scrambling to catch up. I read an article a number of months ago from a editor in traditional publishing who opined that self-publishing first would become more common, and would become sort of a testing ground from which traditional publishing would pluck certain works. I don't know if it'll ever rise to that level, but I think whoever opined that it will be less common in the future is living in the past. At this point, the incidences of it seem to be growing, and I don't see any reason for that to change. I don't really buy the idea of burning through the market, because self-published books aren't even the majority of the market.
     
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  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    We can meet back here in... five years? And see what's happening! It's definitely an interesting time to be a writer.
     
  16. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yeah, it'll be interesting to see.

    Were you to go back five years or so into the past, the consensus would be that if you self-publish there's just no way you'll ever get a traditional contract. I think if you asked industry insiders that would certainly have been the case. I don't really trust the prognostications of industry insiders when it comes to technological shifts in the market. They're too invested in the old world. I've worked with a lot of content producers, and sat in at lunch meetings a few years ago with TV executives and attorneys who were poo-pooing the idea of people ever shifting to streaming content (which I found funny because I'd already cut the cord by then), and the level of misunderstanding and overwhelming urge to deny where things were heading was just astonishing. Of course, these were mostly older people who mostly didn't understand the new technology themselves, and they've since had to be dragged kicking and streaming into the 21st century.

    No way to know for sure what'll happen in publishing, but I'm interested in finding out.
     
  17. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    @jannert

    It sounds like you're in a unique position. I think I can understand modern length requirements. I'm willing to bet most aspiring writers have bloated prose and unnecessary passages. I was initially freaking out because my own WIP(3rd draft) was about 150k words, but the truth is, during my fourth draft, I see just how much fat (both micro and macro) really needs to be trimmed. The result of lean texts definitely results in a certain narrative flow, and you're probably not going to get The Godfather vibe with a sleek 90k novel. The other consideration is that there are just so many novels out there, and that we are a time obsessed culture. Something short and sweet respects these aspects of our current reality.

    Presumably most of us have a magnum opus we'd like to write. I do, and I can't imagine it being shorter than 200k, in finished form. Personally, I respect rules and the system, and am more than willing to first get a novel of acceptable length out there (in my dreams, of course) and then worry about the bigger fish.

    From everything you've ever said, I take it you're primarily interested in one story, which just so happens to require extra space. This is a unique and understandable position, but may not apply to most of us.
     
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  18. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Link battle! ;)

    Bestseller Success Stories that Started Out as Self-Published Books (11 examples)

    Getting a Traditional Book Deal After Self-Publishing (Single anecdote)

    This was interesting, publishers have in the past actually sought out well selling self-pubbed novels:
    Why the Self-Published Ebook is No Longer the "New Query"
    That certainly goes against the 'self-publish will doom your chances' mantra.

    But of course there is the wealth of information in the rest of the article some of which is discouraging like people's Kindles are full? I do though, find that one a tad dubious. Even if people wanted to save all the books on their Kindles, it's relatively cheap to buy a new one. I'm thinking of getting a new one myself because the newer ones are in color with better graphics.

    Perhaps people who filled their Kindles with low cost books have long to-read lists and aren't getting as many new books. Something tells me that isn't true either given Amazon eBooks still appears rather profitable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I feel like we read different articles for that second one. It was referencing a lot of the ideas I'd mentioned about self-publishing no longer being a good way to get big publisher interest. I mean, I agree, "doom your chances" is a pretty strong way to put it, but that article definitely suggests that it's getting harder to get publishing deals via self-pubbing. The quote you pulled out was talking about the past... and then the rest of the article was talking about the present, and pointing out that things don't work that way anymore. Was that not how you read it?
     
  20. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I posted it because it had a lot of information packed into it. There's no point in only posting things which say what you are looking for. The link battle was a joke. I'm not arguing on any side here.

    I've already said I plan to query some agents and publishers but that I see self publishing as a wonderful back up. I don't believe self-publishing is the road to failure. I think one's book itself makes or breaks it. Publishing, be it self or traditional, merely makes the road easier or harder.
     
  21. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I've just deleted some books from my Kindle (which is nowhere near full yet!). I suspect it's like giving books away from your real-life bookshelves. Some people will find that easier to do than others. The cheap prices of Kindle books makes me take chances on books and authors I wouldn't otherwise do, and I've made a few great discoveries. I have, on a couple of occasions, liked the Kindle book so much I went out and bought the paper version. It's nice to have both options available.
     
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  22. stevesh

    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Barnes & Nobe has about a million-and-a-half free ebooks available, and some I've downloaded to my Nook have been pretty good. I'd guess that has kept me from buying as many books as I might have. I think the ebook business is so profitable by its nature (same price or more for ebook versions without the expense of printing or distribution or middle men? Please.) that Amazon and the others aren't worried by free or low-cost competitors.

    Technically, you can't delete a book from a Nook, but they have sd card slots, so you can't 'fill them up'.
     
  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, that's what I've been trying to say. Thanks.
     
  24. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Ginger, my first thought upon reading the "Kindles are full" comment was, "What about 'the cloud'?" One no longer has to store their Kindle collection on the device. I'm a newcomer to the Kindle world (my wife was shocked!) and I'm still not fully acclimated, but I don't see anything that suggests that one is severely limited, space-wise.

    That said, I read the "No Longer the New Query" article as discouraging anyone whose long term plan is to be traditionally published. In fact, it specifically says so near the end. At the same time, if the rules of the game have changed so radically from 4 years ago, who really knows what the future holds?

    Also, apropos @jannert's comments, the recommendation that those of us seeking traditional publishing to rely on querying agents - the promise of eBook self-publishing was an attempt to end run the agent querying process. Having begun that process myself, I can tell you it takes patience, persistence and fortitude. Unfortunately, I have been sidetracked by some personal issues and so not as active as I would have liked. But most agents want little more than a 1-page letter and 5 or 10 pages of text, and maybe a chapter outline or 1-page synopsis, upon which to decide whether your work is "for them". For someone like Jan or myself, writing longer, more complex works, it's a tiny doorway to squeeze through. Rejections are boilerplate, giving you no indication of where you might be falling short.

    That said, there is always another way. It just may not be self-pubbing.
     
  25. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    This reminds me of the film The Artist. You seen it?
     

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