when does poetry draw the line with a story?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by katina, Aug 7, 2018.

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  1. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    It is a story.... what I think you mean to say is 'Why Paradise Lost not consider a novel"

    Because Paradise Lost is written in Iambic Pentameter, not prose; Also, it uses a great deal of poetic Rhetoric, Symbolism, imagery, and sound devices. It is pretty much what a poem is 100x over.
     
  2. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    But that is NOT what poetry is, it is just one of thing that it can accomplish.

    A dramatic Monologue (which are still common type of poem today) does not fit into your above definition; you really need to take the time and learn what poetry is, not what you think it is. Start by learning that there are three types of poetry: Narrative (story), Lyrical (The expression of feeling or thoughts through an image) and Dramatic (A character speaking.)
     
  3. katina

    katina Banned Contributor

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    No. I meant why was Paradise Lost not written as a story/novel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  4. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Imo the title of this thread deserves a better conversation than what's taking place. Much of the thread's failure can be attributed to the original poster—she spoke in absolutes about what constitutes poetry and stories, and she can rightly be picked apart for that. But the conversation needn't stop at textbook definitions. It doesn't for me. And I'm not even sure it needs to begin there.
     
  5. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    It is a story... we've all said this. Even Chicken said this. And Milton choose to write it like this because (get ready for this) he wanted to. He wanted to write an epic poem written in English. It was his dream, his life long goal, the highlight of his life.
     
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  6. katina

    katina Banned Contributor

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    I get what you are saying.
    So where does one draw the line between plays and poetry if the latest is everything you have just mentioned, which I am not negating by the way, because this is how it is taught and presented to the literary world.
     
  7. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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  8. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    I wonder if this conversation would have been more fruitful if the original poster would have used 'fiction' in place of 'story'. Fiction per Wikipedia:

    Fiction
    broadly refers to any narrative that is derived from the imagination—in other words, not based strictly on history or fact.[1][2][3] It can also refer, more narrowly, to narratives written only in prose (the novel and short story), and is often used as a synonym for the novel.[4]

    Had she done that maybe so many of the comments wouldn't be locked in a tug of war of definitions.

    When does poetry cross the line into fiction (meaning novels and short stories)?

    Edit: I'm sympathetic with the OP though, as I commonly use 'story' and 'fiction' interchangeably.
     
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  9. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    Omg... you guys can't be real. Why can't poetry be fiction? Fiction means not real, made up, imaginative. Poetry can have made up events, not real, imaginative.
     
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  10. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Turn your brain on before you reply to me.
     
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  11. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    OR better yet, how about you use the right word? (I know, novel concept, but hey, words, they exists for a reason).

    -
    The question you all should be asking is: What is the difference between A novel/Short story and poetry? (Which is the question you've all danced around asking because some people ignorantly believe poetry can't tell stories.)

    The answer is that poetry focuses on Sonics, Compression, and (here is the big one) the line; I would also argue that a great deal of poetry focuses on Rhetoric (Figures of speech.)
     
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  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    @OJB -- I don't think I was dancing. I'm in agreement with you.
     
  13. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    I used the exact word I wanted and even cited it from Wikipedia... I see reasoning isn't your strong suit.
     
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  14. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    I literally asked that very question in post 33. Why are you struggling so hard to follow this conversation? :bigmeh:
     
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  15. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    -

    I know you are.

    I've actually just read an essay by William Baer on how the majority of English Cannon (for stories) was written in poetry (Paradise Lost, the Divine Comedy, Dr. Faustus, The Iliad, the Odyssey, The Aeneid, all of Shakespeare, I'm sure I can keep going.)

    The point I am trying to make is that there is a LONG (like since birth of the English Language) history of Poetry telling stories (most of which are canonized). The idea that poetry can't tell stories is not only outlandish (and historically incorrect) it screams "I don't know anything about poetry," when someone says it.
     
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  16. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Yes, that is the same facile point you seem to be incapable of moving off of, despite the fact that there is little opposition to it.
     
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  17. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I think it can be frustrating to see these kinds of questions because the answers are easily found by simply being someone who reads at least poetry if not prose as well. Poetry is so mush more than word tricks and allusiveness. In fact, it's hardly that at all. It's not just scribbles of the mind that might sound nice. It would just be nice to have such discussions with people who actually read poetry. I mean no disrespect to any of the members posting here, but poetry is something you should studied with both your heart and your mind if you have passion for it and maybe some talent. And by study I just mean to indulge in it. I read poetry almost every day and have for quite some while. I read the poems aloud and over and over again because the good ones can really take your breath away. I love poetry far more as a reader than a writer. I like to write in certain forms to test myself and than be able to appreciate it in a whole new way. It's just that it's pretty easy to spot the difference between a poem and a story. Yes, there are a handful that both lay claim to, but we're not even discussing that here really. We should all be reading poetry. It's good for the soul.

    When this thread started I decided to write a poem that tells a story. I took a simple story once told to me by someone else. The way you tell a story is so much different in poetry compared to prose. With creative freewill I allowed my story to become a poem. I have read many narrative poems so I sort of understood a sort of templet I could work with. It came out not so bad. But the revision process of poetry is so much different. Sounds. Pauses. Breaths. It requires different shaping. That's sort of my process when I write and look at poetry. This might actually be the best poem I've ever written. So, thanks guys! I continue to tighten it and listen to it for context, imagery and sound. That can be like prose. But I'm also paying close attention to my line breaks and stanzas, which is something I continue to play around with. How you lay out a poem on the page has a lot to do with your storytelling technic with poetry. Some can be written almost like prose, but I would argue there is a method to this madness when it comes to poetry. Such things are very intentional and thought out or adjusted or both. I think poetry is a lot like music. I want to learn to play the guitar so I can really appreciate those who do it well. I am in love with poetry. I want to know everything about it. I believe I'm developing more of an ear for it than I had when I started.

    I think there is a story inside almost every poem, especially if we are talking about contemporary poetry. But that doesn't mean they're the same thing. I think in poetry the subtext has to do more work than it has to do in prose. The whole story has to be in the subtext so what do you put on that page so that the story unfolds before the readers? Maybe that's the real question.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
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  18. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Your first post in this thread contains a link to a piece of literature that is, in your words, "long debated," whether it's a short story or poem. And you admitted you could see the merits of both arguments. It's not easy.

    I don't imagine the specific properties and boundaries of short stories, novels, and poetry are easy to come by if one just reads more of them. I know a lot of avid readers, but I know much fewer literary theorists.

    Honestly, this reads like a cop out. A sort of appeal to authority so you don't have to have the conversation - which you don't. No offense taken, btw.

    I recommend you try and learn the guitar. I play. It's good for the soul too. :bigcool:
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  19. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    At risk of being dull, repetitive, A Radio With Guts might be an excellent prop in the classroom with those irksome tearaways of the back row? I am looking at you @Katina

    it was on the 2nd floor on Coronado Street
    I used to get drunk
    and throw the radio through the window
    while it was playing, and, of course,
    it would break the glass in the window
    and the radio would sit there on the roof
    still playing
    and I'd tell my woman,
    "Ah, what a marvelous radio!"
    the next morning I'd take the window
    off the hinges
    and carry it down the street
    to the glass man
    who would put in another pane.
    I kept throwing that radio through the window
    each time I got drunk
    and it would sit there on the roof
    still playing-
    a magic radio
    a radio with guts,
    and each morning I'd take the window
    back to the glass man.
    I don't remember how it ended exactly
    though I do remember
    we finally moved out.
    there was a woman downstairs who worked in
    the garden in her bathing suit,
    she really dug with that trowel
    and she put her behind up in the air
    and I used to sit in the window
    and watch the sun shine all over that thing
    while the music played.

    Charles Bukowski
     
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  20. katina

    katina Banned Contributor

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    Thanks matwoolf for that that is way too long for me.
    I have very short concentration span and so this just throws me out.
    I do like Bukowski when he writes briefly and intermittently. :)
     
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  21. katina

    katina Banned Contributor

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    @Bone2pick Is that you in your avatar picture?
     
  22. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    'Katina, take the bubblegum out of your mouth and sit still for one moment. Now, imagine Bukowski is Malfoy lying in bed with Hermione. Right, I shall narrate again.'
     
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  23. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
     
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  24. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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  25. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Another pointless cop out. Disappointing, but not surprising.
     

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