When should copyright?

Discussion in 'Self-Publishing' started by Rita M Gardner, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    It's not hard to fake :/
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Is registration actually proof of anything? Like, if I registered someone else's work before they got around to it... what would happen? (Not that I'm planning to steal anyone's work - I've got enough trouble dealing with my own!)
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  3. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    That's a good question. In order to register something in the US, would you first have to prove it's yours, and how do you prove it's yours pre-registration?
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    My understanding is that, no, there is no proof step. It's not like a patent. There is no inherent structure of the copyright system to keep two people from registering exactly the same thing.
     
  5. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    So, theoretically, you could take anything of anyone else's and register it under your own name? :-O
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    That's my understanding, yep. My understanding of copyright registration is that it's essentially a tagging system--THIS whatsit, THIS person or organization or other entity, THIS date. You can't have property without a way to identify that property. Copyright registration identifies the property and tags it with people's claims about that property.

    Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so my understanding of what it's good for may be entirely wrong.
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  7. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    You may get a legal presumption out of it in the U.S., just as an issued patent has a legal presumption of validity (a stolen invention where you name yourself as an inventor results in an invalid patent). Ultimately, it is all subject to challenge, but the challenger has to bring a high level of proof.

    When it comes to proof of possession, which is easy to fake by methods discussed earlier, a certified copy of the U.S. government's copyright records is not going to be easy to fake.
     
  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    It wouldn't be easy to fake, but it'd be easy to register something you didn't create, right?

    If I register copyright of one of my books, and someone else registers copyright of one of my books - does the presumption of validity apply to the first one of us to register?
     
  9. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    A registration creates rebuttable presumption. I haven't seen the exact facts you are talking about - my guess is that the presumption is going to go with the earlier filing.

    Also, from what I can tell the occurrence of people registering other people's work in their own name appears to be rather law. Doing this would be considered fraud on the Copyright Office, which may be a reason people don't do it very often.

    You're always going to have potential proof of authorship issues. The registration puts you in a better legal standing, because you have a rebuttable presumption. In the legal setting, the burden of proof has shifted. Having a registration, having witnesses who will testify as to authorship, &c., can all help you. Mailing isn't going to get you as far. If you're simply trying to prove possession, a certified record from the Copyright Office is going to be as good as anything in court.
     
  10. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    Who has the job of checking every registration to make sure that you are not registering something already registered?
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    No one. Just as when you file a patent, the government is relying on your representation that you are the inventor, author, or what have you and are not committing fraud. When there is fraud committed on the patent office, or the copyright office, that typically comes to light during an adversarial proceeding (like when the true author or inventor files suit, or when the false author or inventor tries to do so). The patent office actually has an administrative proceeding called an "interference" for working some of these issues out, but I'm not aware of any such process in the copyright office. It would be prohibitively expensive for them to try to do it with every filing.

    Given the presumption that attaches, this is probably another good reason to register within 3 months of publication in the U.S. And the U.S. certificate would likely be considered as evidence of possession in most jurisdictions.
     
  12. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    So there's a bog possibility that you might not even know if someone has registered your stuff as their own, until much later if you (in the case of a book) come across "your" work or (in the case of, lets say, an engine design) see it advertised in the media.

    Such a blooming sticky area. I don't think the world is full of people nicking other people's ideas and IP, the problem is that the few times it has happened, it's left a bad taste in everyone's mouth which has resulted in authors/artists/designers/inventors becoming paranoid and over protective about their work. (but then, can you blame them when we put so much work into what we do?
     
  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    It's possible. I've never come across it in copyright, but I have with respect to patents. Authors are probably more paranoid about it than they should be, but I would never assume it won't happen. I do know someone who had his short story stolen and submitted to (and accepted by) a publisher. We sent a letter to the publisher and they apologized and removed the story, but nothing happened to the thief (other than to his reputation).

    It's not only a sticky area, but unfortunately very expensive. If someone is stealing your stuff, there are other options I tell people to try before even thinking of a lawsuit. If it is happening online, a DMCA takedown notice (in the U.S.), is something many people can do for themselves. I'll often tell people to try that, then come back to me if it doesn't work. A cease and desist letter is another strategy. If you end up looking at a court filing, you're going to need to have enough damages to justify at least getting the process rolling (which, in the U.S., is another reason for prompt registration, because if you register within certain timeframes you can get statutory damages and possibly even recover your attorney's fees).

    I read somewhere recently that the average cost of a copyright suit going all the way through trial was now between $400K and $500K in the U.S., and it can go above that. I'm in a patent case right now where we're sitting at around $600K and the trial hasn't started yet. The other side in that one is probably already over $1 million, since they hired an expensive law firm (that I used to work for, so I know what those guys charge per hour - anywhere from $600 to $750 based on who is on the case).
     
  14. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    Certainly not cheap then. I sellbthrough createspace which means I receive 52p per paperback. A few month ago I found someone selling my books on eBay for £15 each. Which means I would get the 52p and the seller would get a fiver per book for pressing a button. As Amazon are the sole sellers, I did get the paperwork in order to make the seller take it down. Instead, I messaged them to ask if they had an Amazon reseller licence/agreement. When they came back to me asking "who wants to know?" I answered "the author". They took my book off their eBay site without arguing.

    Perhaps not quite the same as your cases.
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Do you not have used book stores in the UK? In the US, under the First Sale doctrine, if someone buys a book (or DVD or whatever) they can resell that physical copy, they just can't make copies. That's why used book stores are not violating the copyright of the authors.
     
  16. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    6,631
    Likes Received:
    10,135
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Nice one @Steerpike.

    Anyone wants a copy of @Cutecat's book, I got it, hundred quid. She gets nothing.

    Time we shut down the second-hand book shops. Who's with me?
     
  17. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    Yes. But the guy on eBay wasn't doing that. If you ordered from him and paid the £15, he would then place the order with Amazon for the paperback and have it sent straight to the buyer. So strictly speaking, it wasn't second hand. It was listed as new and he was doing it with a number of other books too. I've looked into this with Amazon and so long as the seller is registered with Amazon as a reseller, they can buy anything from Amazon, mark it up and resell it. Bear in mind I'm in the UK which might have slightly different reselling rules.
     
    Steerpike likes this.
  18. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    6,631
    Likes Received:
    10,135
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    You'd still get 52p?
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  19. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    No, no. I'm not talking about second hand books.

    I'm talking about people acting as a reseller.
     
  20. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    Yes. Lol.

    I was more concerned about my writing reputation (cheeky bitch wants £15 for a book and she's an unknown author!) In the end, I looked at it as advertisement.
     
  21. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Ah, I see. I thought he was reselling copies he already bought. Makes sense.
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  22. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    6,631
    Likes Received:
    10,135
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Yes, I know it must be very frustrating :/

    You're out there, doing your thing, I admire what you do..
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    But is it illegal? I can't really see any reason why it would be.
     
  24. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Probably not, but may well be against Amazon's Terms of Service, so they could ban the account.
     
  25. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    So long as he's registered with Amazon as a reseller, no, it's totally legal.

    I don't think he was as when I questioned him on it, he took my book off his list of items for sale.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice