When You have a big book

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Duchess-Yukine-Suoh, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. Siena

    Siena Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2012
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    93
    I would just write it the way I want to write it - just making sure the story is very very interesting and good good good.

    During the process of writing, you'll probably do a lot of cutting anyway.

    At the moment, it sounds like your eyes are bigger than your stomach.
     
  2. DrWhozit

    DrWhozit Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    580
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Close to Indy, USA
    Sounds contradictory to the idea that conventional (non-indy) publishers are overtly picky. Also, I did a search on Double Dragon and found restaurants, movies and video games, but no book publisher. What's up with that?
     
  3. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    @JayG: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I haven't much to add, and in any case, this isn't the right thread for it.

    I'm not sure if your message comes across the way his does, then, to tell you the truth, in which case I apologize for using the term "parrot".
    Don't get me wrong, those books can be mighty useful, and that wasn't what got me disagreeing with your reply. I've learned a lot from how-to-books and websites, but there's also stuff out there that has me blanched as well. Also, I'm not sure how many writers here want to be the next Jack Bickham (he seems like a pretty obscure figure and not particularly popular nowadays). I must admit, whenever I read anything how-to, I check the writer's credentials, and I check what kind of novels they've published. In a way, it's like if you want to learn judo, you go to a judo class. If you go to the boxing ring after that, only the judo skills under your belt, no matter how good you are at judo, you'll get pummelled. They are two different things and while some elements of your previous training might help a bit, it doesn't give you all the skills you need in the ring, a bad thing if your dream is to become a boxer.

    Which kind of leads me back to the original topic: 800 pages look unusual for a romance novel, but since we have three books' worth of that under the name 50 Shades, I suppose anything is possible, and if that's how the story comes out (how the OP knows this, not sure) then so be it. Self-pubbing is a wonderful thing anyway.

    My uniform comment had more to do with treating readers as this gray mass who all have the same needs, who read the same way, understand characters the same way, invest or don't invest themselves emotionally in the same way, and so on.

    EDIT: About this:
    I could be terribly wrong, but there just might be more to writing than technique. Like life-experience. I'd even dare say it's a fact that not everybody can become J.K. Rowling, no matter how well they write. That holds true in just about every art, craft, and sport out there: the top is narrow, and the bottom is littered with wannabes, some of whom genuinely suck, some of whom are brilliant, but just not what the people responsible for raising some of the brilliants to the top want at that time.
     
    jannert and T.Trian like this.
  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    Just back from a week's absence and picking through the threads I've missed. This one was entertaining, and enlightened me on how different schooling can be, from country to country.

    I had the same American experience @JayG had, where we didn't get any creative writing in school at all. I remember being asked to write ONE short story in high school, and a couple of poems which were required to stick to a particular format ...sonnet and haiku. That's it. The short story was simply graded, and the techniques were never discussed. And I was an English major who became an English teacher (briefly.)

    Totally envy you Finns, @KaTrian!

    As to book length, I agree with a couple of the people who suggested you shouldn't worry about the length, just write it. Once you finish (the MOST important thing you can do as a writer!), then see what you've got. If it's way too long for a traditional publisher to consider, you can keep it for later, and write something else that's short to try to get your foot in the door. You could go the e-publishing route. You could chop your long story into sections and sell them as a series. You could edit it down. All sorts of things to do, but you can't do any of them until you finish.

    As for reading. I LOVE long books. (Obviously they need to be well-written, but so do shorter ones.) I love settling in with a book that I know I'll be reading for several days in a row. That's immersion reading, and I personally love it. In my entire life, I've never shied away from a book because it was too thick or too long.
     
  5. DrWhozit

    DrWhozit Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    580
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Close to Indy, USA
    I believe this has to do with the local school administration and the local mindset. I was in Junior High (7th Grade) when we had to write our first short stories. I grew up in a community that, till after that particular year, was far more oriented toward intellectual growth than sports. We were class B township school competing against the Class A center city school. Consider, too, this was a city with a population of around 19,000.

    Ironically, fate has tossed my other half and me into a city twice that size having the lowest scholastic scores in the US. Where Niles, MI (the oldest community in Michigan when it became a state) was turning to the sports mindset in the mid-60's, Anderson, IN (Founding headquarters of The (so-called) Church of God, keeping it's thumb over the people) has been so benighted since the late 1800's. Here, in Anderson, 99% of the population falls into that "8 word intake" capacity, where Niles fostered many high level thinkers. One example is Mike West of Advanced Cell Technology fame. Another example of creative success from Niles is Tommy James & the Shondells.

    In all that history, I'm saying that birds of a feather flock together. Some flock at the local library or Harvard where others flock to the basketball hoop. What we are taught in youth does not have to be the mindset we choose to keep once we are out on our own.

    http://americanprofile.com/articles/the-worlds-oldest-college-graduate/
     
  6. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    andrae...
    you're overlooking the reality that if the query says it's a way-too-long ms [and word count must be included], no publisher is ever going to read it, so they'll never know if it's a 'page-turner' they can love...
     
    Andrae Smith, KaTrian and 123456789 like this.
  7. DrWhozit

    DrWhozit Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    580
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Close to Indy, USA
    "They" should be horse-whipped for being so cowardly, but even the most courageous might decline someone inventing words like "offputting" when "distancing" would serve better... of course you might get away with it if you're Sarah Palin.
     
  8. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    Then there're those fantasy and sci-fi publishing houses who only mention the minimum word-count...
     
  9. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    State of Confusion

    I, personally, don't care about the length of the book as long as the material is good - the writing high quality, the story riveting, and the characters believably engaging.

    But I'm not the average agent/publisher and what I think won't matter when you send off your love child to agents for consideration. If you have a recognizable name, you will likely get agents and publishers to jump at your ms even if it is a thousand pages of drivel. (I've seen way too much of that! Once a writer becomes well-known and their agent doesn't want to lose their cash cow they just rubber stamp the work no matter how bad it may be!) If you are mid-list... eh-h, maybe. If you are somewhere below the bottom of the list? Most agents aren't going to be impressed by the War and Peace, doorstop length of your tome. Those same agents will also generally be willing to give your first page or two a read. And this, as they say, is where the rubber meets the road. If you can't absolutely wow them in those first 500 words (and, bear in mind, you are starting at a deficit with such a large volume in the first place) they are not likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    So, if you think you have a solid, tight, riveting story instead of a rambling, needs to be cut by about half, 200,000 words, go ahead and send it off. But you'd better make darned sure you are right about the quality and entertainment value of your manuscript before you do.
     
  10. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    Just as a side note, here... though it is usually spelled as a hyphenated word, 'off-putting' is a real word. And the 'they' being referenced quite obviously refers back to the aforementioned readers.

    (You're not going to get upset over 'aforementioned' now, are you?)
     
  11. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    Ahh! Indeed. I was in the third or fourth grade when I first heard the word Edda. When I discovered it was not someone's name but an epic novel, I was thrilled! (Then I got to university and had a whole semester of Beowulf... interesting, intriguing, but somewhat less thrilling.)
     
  12. DrWhozit

    DrWhozit Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    580
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Close to Indy, USA
    @thewordsmith
    I checked in an exhaustive Webster's and found offtake, but no offput[ting]. Both of those gets a red line in this editor. Distancing doesn't. Why on earth would you assume I was "upset" about anything at all?
     
  13. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    I'm actually more familiar with Beowulf :D Epic novels like Edda and Kalevala are studied to a degree, but they can be quite challenging to kids.

    On the other hand, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo became quite popular in Europe and the US even though it doesn't seem to be written like (crime) novels "should be." (some American critic said it has "inept backstory, banal characterizations, flavorless prose, surfeit of themes (Swedish Nazism, uncaring bureaucracy, corporate malfeasance, abuse of women, etc.), and--worst of all--author Larsson's penchant for always telling us exactly what we should be feeling.")

    Crime novels are actually really huge in Sweden and Norway -- titles by Swedish and Norwegian authors, I mean. There probably are some differences in "rules." As for the novel length, that seems pretty standard -- not too many super novels in the most popular genres.
     
  14. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    269
    Location:
    Canada
    FWIW I prefer the best chance for good outcome method. I can't see much difference in trying to get a good story that I would be proud of and readers would accept and one that is "commercial" except it relieves you of the need to seek a publisher.
     
  15. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    640
    Likes Received:
    360
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    You're forgetting something important. When we hand our work to anyone other then our family, that work is going to be read and compared to commercial fiction (and never forger that Dickens wrote commercial fiction, so it's a big field). And the people who write it well enough to sell their work to a publisher aren't making up the techniques as they go. They've been slowly developed and refined over centuries. It is commercial fiction because people enjoy reading it enough to pay money they had to earn to read it, which says a lot.

    Anyone can, of course, write any way they care to. I can't twist your arm. But if you hope to please the reader, doesn't it make sense to learn the basics so it will read like what they expect fiction to read like? Writing fiction for the page is a profession. And were you to want to ply any profession, even if not as how you make your living, wouldn't you at least read a book, take a class, or talk to someone who is knowledgeable in the field? After all, if you're not willing to devote even a few weeks and a few dollars to prepare yourself for the task, the only way you can call yourself a serious writer is by never smiling.

    We all graduate school believing that writing is writing and we have that part down, so we need only a bit of practice a good plot idea, some "natural talent," and enough luck to attract a muse. But in our schooling we take history. Did that make us historians? Did we leave high school as mathematicians? Of course not. So why believe that, somehow, writing for the printed word is different, and that we'll pick up what we need by looking at the finished product?
     
  16. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    640
    Likes Received:
    360
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    In that case, who better to write novels about teen age life than that CW course trained high school student? ;)
     
  17. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Location:
    Washington State, U.S.A.
    @JayG those are valid points and I'm not arguing that. It's a debate better left to those who completely disagree, which I do not. What I'm making a point of is your presentation. Again, I know it is not your intent, but when I read your posts I feel like I'm being talked down to, and I'm sure you're not trying to put anybody down. It's not a matter of content, but attitude--or more appropriately, tone. I like to think you're a friendly guy and very knowledgeable, and I respect you for your experience. However, I'm just trying to provide some insight as to one possible reason you're met with such resistance here and have to repeat the same thing time and again. Facts are not persuasive in themselves, but presentation carries. Of course, I'm sure you know this, I'm just presenting some food for thought. Is that alright? Do you see what I'm saying, it's okay if you disagree with me, but are we on the same page as far as what I'm talking about? I'm not arguing against learning the skills and techniques, or how to go about doing it. :cool:
     
  18. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    640
    Likes Received:
    360
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    That's because I'm not saying, "This is what I think," and I'm presenting things as if they're facts not opinion. That kind of kills a discussion. I know that, and I hear it often. But I'm not presenting opinions. And the people I'm quoting/recommending are university professors with decades of experience in teaching professional fiction writing technique at Oklahoma University, which is noted for the number of successful writers who learned their craft there. This article isn't about Swain or BIckham, but it tells about them and about the university's lineage.

    It's tempting to relegate writing to something that just "comes" to us as a result of having done our high school assignments, reading fiction, plus a pure heart, but the elements of writing fiction are a lot more than guesswork. That university offers a four year degree program. That's four years of study. It's hard work and covers a lot of ground. To believe that the hopeful writer's option is to either learn how to construct a story, and how/why the elements that make it up play together, or, just sit down and do it—with equal chance of success—seems a bit delusional. But that's just my opinion.

    Look, I like this site. It's one of the best. It's programmed especially well, the conversation is interesting, and there's a high percentage of people who take their writing seriously. But like most such sites the vast majority of those using it aren't pros (and I don't think of myself as one) so what we get is often heartfelt and sincerely offered advice and opinion that has no real connection to what we might get from a teacher or publisher. We might well be advised to do something that is, in reality, the one thing that keeps that writer from having a publisher say yes. But how can we know that unless we've had a yes or talked with publishers and other knowledgeable people?

    This is a really great place for reader feedback and discussion, but... And the sad thing is that I've seen writers who have achieved commercial success shouted down in a forum like this (but not on this site) and driven out when they gave good solid advice, because it was counter to site group-think.

    Studying craft won't make anyone a published writer. Reading Swain or Bickham won't make your prose any better. That's your job. But it will give you an understanding of why things work, and don't. It will give you the tools. And as they say, if the only tool you own is a hammer, everything is going to look like a nail.
     
    Andrae Smith and Fitzroy Zeph like this.
  19. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    I'm going to chime in here. First, as someone mentioned before, not all writers are writing for commercial success. So the target audience of someone like Thomas Pynchon is a lot different than the target audience of someone like Dan Brown.

    Second, all of these how-to books and writing workshops are a relatively recent phenomenon. The greatest writers in history learned from reading the works of other writers. I refuse to believe that something magically changed in the past few decades such that aspiring writers today must use these tools to become good at their craft. That's just nonsense.

    If you want to use such tools, that's fine. I can see how some people might find them useful. But I strongly believe that these things aren't necessary at all.
     
    minstrel likes this.
  20. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    @Andrae Smith @thirdwind. The real reason Jayg is met with resistance is because he speaks truth and it hurts. Why are so many excerpts/ short stories (and I'm not excepting my own) in the work shop so hard to read? Many DO read like reports. Many do put me to sleep.The authors of those excerpts are clearly missing something and maybe some of that could be gleaned from fiction writing literature.
    It's no secret that the worst enemy of many aspiring writers is him/herself. It's hard to admit your work is mediocre if that, that you don't know what you're really doing. Put your stuff in the workshop and see what happens. Nice story, interesting idea , held my attention, at best means you're OK not great. In that case, it's up to you to fix it. Maybe how to books won't help you, but that's what tying is us. Trying means doing whatever it takes to get better.

    The other argument is "we don't want that kind of success." That's like some 4 foot waif saying she wont lift that dumbbell cause she's afraid she'll gain too much muscle. We all ought to do ourselves a favor and worry less about getting mainstream and more about looking like a professional.
     
    Fitzroy Zeph and JayG like this.
  21. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    I'm not entirely sure this is the case, but to me it looks like a lot of people here are actually agreeing despite the argumentative nature of the discussion and we're going in circles because people are talking about different things in some cases and the same things in others, but with different names.

    I don't think many here, if any, are saying don't take classes, don't study how-to books, don't find out what different publishers of different genres and formats want from new writers, don't study the craft of writing to learn how to plot, how to build realistic worlds and characters, how to craft scenes etc.
    It's just that since people write different kinds of literature here and their goals may differ a bit, the emphasis they place on different areas of learning the craft, the art varies from writer to writer to a degree. And by differing emphasis, I don't even mean placing less value on X than on Y (although that may be the case in some instances, I wouldn't know), but, rather, using it in a different way for different purposes even though the bottom line is that we all aspire to better ourselves as writers.

    Do tell me if I'm completely off the mark here, but e.g. I know Kat studies literature, the theory of writing, grammar, the English language, plotting, world building, takes CW courses (as well as academic writing courses, of course) at the university etc, and the same goes for myself, but I don't think whether to do any of that or not or whether it's a good or a bad thing is even the question here. To me it seems it's more about the role of all those things in the process of improving as a certain kind of a fiction writer, and I believe it goes without saying that different things work for different people as individuals even if they write the same exact genre (which isn't even the case here, so that means even more / more notable differences in approaching the study of the craft / art).

    This is another sports analogy, but I think it's clear enough: it doesn't matter whether you're a 100m sprinter or a marathon runner, you need to have proper technique, you need to learn the necessary skills for your distance, you need to understand how your body works, you have to know a lot about nutrition, feed your body the right foods etc, but the training between these two types of runners differs to a degree despite a lot of similarities because of emphasis which is different because their goals are somewhat different even though they are both runners. The macros of their diets are divided differently because the kind of exercise they do differs somewhat, placing different requirements for their bodies / performances, but they both still need the same macros, just in different relations. Does this make sense?

    If I'm right and this is indeed the case, we could move on with the discussion since I believe this subject has a lot more to offer to all of us but for a while now it seems (to me anyway) we've been going in circles.
     
  22. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    Also, guys, don't forget to check who the person giving the advice is and how they write (even check what kind of an award they've won if they claim so!). Let's not take anything at face-value here. Learn what's out there, read how-to books/websites with a critical eye, know your genre, and write from the heart. It's easy to pick up Creative Writing for Dummies and memorize what's said in there, but it's another thing to put it in practice, so write, write, write, and seek feedback from different kinds of readers/writers... That's what I'd do anyway. It's a learning curve, and I agree that if one wants to be an engineer, you study engineering. If one wants to be a writer, you study (creative) writing.

    It's a small-ish, Canadian e-book publishing house.

    The way I've figured it so far is that it's not the content per se, it's the delivery. Which is ironic because, hum, we all want to be writers -- some already are -- so we should have better-than-average writing and communication skills. To me it just looks like many people don't like absolutes -- even though we know full well that whoever states them can't possibly mean it like that (sometimes it looks like plain flaming). The end result is blanched faces and crawling skins and a bunch of fledgling writers rising to the barricades with pitchforks and torches. What's the point? To separate the wheat from the chaff? Or maybe the only way we learn is by getting kicked in the butt repeatedly.
     
  23. DrWhozit

    DrWhozit Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    580
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Close to Indy, USA
    Ebook? Seems wastefully vanity oriented. I personally thought of starting my own bindery on a shoestring and working up to advertising. Of course I'm unusually ambitious. Most wouldn't have bindery experience.
     
  24. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    Well, they seem to have paperbacks too... But I don't know much about the company, just what I found with my limited google-fu skills.
     
  25. DrWhozit

    DrWhozit Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    580
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Close to Indy, USA
    I find Bing-fu more enlightening ;)
    I'm leaning more toward self publishing an ebook, letting CS and Amazon do as they like with the paperbacks/ebooks then create special editions with my semi-hand binding. As I mentioned, most don't have that ability, still I think it's the same as writing. One only needs to take that first step to learn a new art or phase of their existing art. Hand bound books are nice to have on a shelf. There's an online market for the alone.
    http://www.bing.com/search?q=hand+bound+book+outlets&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=hand+bound+book+outlets&sc=8-4&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=8e2e28ccd3e74309975dd8f4d6ab185f
    http://www.amazon.com/Hand-Bound/lm/R1FGR93RVZZOKE
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice