Oh, good. And thanks for clarifying--I sometimes get extra twitchy when it seems I simply can't explain myself. Yes, and I think that's one of the unfortunate results of using these labels as insults. Word A is a perfectly good non-offensive description, people start using Word A as an insult, and Word A is poisoned for its original use. So we have to come up with Word B--and people promptly start using Word B as an insult. And since most of the people using the words as insults aren't the ones who *originally* popularized them as insults, they claim innocence and possessively cling to their use of the word, thus feeding the cycle.
One of my closest and oldest friends is a lesbian, and I remember when I was around 17 or so I had typed “msn is gay ” as the status in MSN messenger because it was crapping out on me. She pointed out to me that ‘ahem, that’s pretty offensive’, so I promptly apologized ‘cause, yeah, that was dumb, and changed it to “msn is hetero ” She also says about stupid stuff that “that’s so gay”, and that’s her privilege, like blacks (or… Afro-Europeans? I take it we can’t say white anymore either?) can use the N word. And redheaded people can use the G word. Although, note that blacks can call whites ‘crackas’ or ‘cracka-ass-crackas,’ which is cool, ‘cause I like dem crackas. I’m so not on a world-hugging mood every day and really, political correctness is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end, so please, do not deprive your fellow-humans of the outlet of occasional swearage. It’s not always hate-speech, especially when shouted at a fritzing-out computer or an inconsiderate driver all by your lonesome. It's not exactly the same, but I don't find myself particularly insulted when some dude says to another "don't be a bitch" or "quit bitching," in fact, "don't be a dick" and "quit dicking around" are about as insulting. Yay for gender equality. I also call myself a slut, and I call my friends, male or female, sluts if they’ve done something naughty. If some straight white female has an issue with that (because, so far it’s only been straight white females like myself who’ve had issues with that), they need to have a reality check and learn to differentiate between inappropriate and appropriate contexts. I would love to claim “slut” though, like gays seem to have claimed “queer.” I think the latter used to be way more insulting back in the day than it is now. Maybe I should start censoring myself when I arrive late at a French class. Can’t be en retard anymore just in case I’ll insult someone I’m kidding, and I agree, one will come off as a rude oaf (if there are oafs here, I apologize for using it in a negative, derogatory context) if they call their iPhone retarded in front of retarded children or something. I used the second 'retarded' there to modify children with mental disabilities, not children who eat boogers and stuff forks into electric sockets for the fun of it. In one episode of Supernatural, they called Russians ‘Russkies.’ If I wanted, I could throw a hissy and compare that to saying ‘chink’ or ‘nigger’ or ‘gook.’ Sometimes we don’t even know what certain words can mean to other people, what connotations they carry. I agree with @Wreybies and @Steerpike about the dictionary bit. Removing the definition just ‘cause some people use it in an offensive sense is silly. It's also important for EFL learners to know that there're other connotations and usages for certain words or else they'll be confused when someone's on a gay mood in The Great Gatsby but nothing homosexual ever happens. Tagging it “vulgar” or “offensive” in certain contexts is just helpful. P.S. You can call Finns anything you like as long as you talk about us. Nobody talks about us, so even insulting us makes us feel special. Thanks.
I would even go so far as to argue that it's important that it be documented. I am reminded of the scene in Malcolm X, where he is shown and made to read past the glaze of acceptance, the wrapper of paradigm, into the cogs and cams of the definition of the word black there in the dictionary. How the very word had painted and affected how he saw himself because of all of the other negative connotation the word embodies, how he had to first unlearn the lie society and he himself had taught himself about blackness and learn a new truth to replace the lie. As a linguist, that scene is deeply impactful to me in the way it speaks to how language shapes thought. That moment in that man's life would never have happened if the dictionary were a sanitized, Victorianly prim, false recount of the language. I would think the LGBT community would want this record kept and known and remembered.
The thread has moved on a bit and this may be a bit OT, but what the hey... I'm still a bit undecided on the issue with the words "gay" and "retarded" but what you describe there would definitely be perfectly fine to me, personally. I'm half-Bulgarian and Bulgarians themselves actually have a saying that translates roughly to "we just did this in a Bulgarian way, didn't we?" It means that you just made a mess out of something, complicated a simple procedure, the expression stemming from our communist past and how it affected people's lives when it came to anything even remotely related to red tape. I'm also half-Finnish and I see no reason to get upset if someone says "what an utterly Finnish thing to do," when e.g. someone is on a holiday abroad, staggers around drunk in public, pisses on the sidewalk, insults the next woman he sees, and punches the next guy he sees. Or if someone says we're borderline mute forest people (when we're sober). Like with the Bulgarian expression, the reputation of Finns is our own doing (although Finland's flora is also partly to blame, what with all the forests...), so why try to pretend it's not a semi-accurate, if humorous and somewhat insulting portrayal of our nation? Every Finn knows such a sight is pretty common here. This doesn't mean that I'm not proud of my roots, I am, but I can also laugh at myself (again, not commenting on the use of the words "gay" or "retarded"). If anyone wants to insult me, they have to do a much better job than that.
I think whether a person actually wants to insult you is an important point. When it comes down to it, words are ultimately symbols we use to communicate our intent to people. If you know the intent the person is trying to express is not meant to be offensive, then it makes no sense to be offended by their words. At worst, they've simply bungled their word choice and haven't expressed their intent as clearly as they might, but if you've seen through it and realize that's what happened, being nevertheless offended doesn't seem reasonable. Getting back to the use of the word gay, I still don't think young people (or at least those I know) use it with the intent to insult anyone, or even really equate gay, meaning lame or stupid or whatever, with gay, the sexual orientation. The two words appear, to me at least, to have become dissociated.
There are a lot of different way one can look at these words. One can argue (and this is a common argument) that this use of the word gay has its source in the unprotected and discountable status gays have in modern culture. But when you look at the rest of media and the rest of culture away from this word, that's not what one sees. There's still a long way to go to normalization of gay culture into the rest of the greater culture, but just within the past 5 - 10 years, I have seen this normalization take unprecedented leaps. Could it not as easily be argued that the word was appropriated because it no longer held any sort of taboo to younger people growing up in a world where Kindle has TV ads with clear and pointed out married gay couples? Could the GenX clutching of the pearls be because we carry the stigma, not the word?
I work in an NVQ college. When I wrote that post I had just got back from teaching a class of level 2s, who for the most part are quite happy to use the word 'gay' as an insult. You are right, no one of this thread has really talked about it, but it's something I hear a lot in the real world.
I want to address this because it was me who said similar words here not long ago and I want people to know where I was coming from when I said it, as opposed to what I really think, which is rather other. In real life, where I am warm blooded mammal taking part in the ATP cycle, I think that the American Politically Correct Revolution that took place in the 90's was one of the worst moments of modern American culture. Everything became unsayable and the precedent opened the door to any word falling under the paradigm of unPC. I don't use the word gay in the way we are speaking, not only because I don't like it, but because it's not really so much part of my generation. It may have started with us, but it was the millennials who really embraced it. I have said things like, "Why thank you, sir. Mighty white of you." in a jocular manner and I know there are members in this forum for whom themz fight'n words. The PC revolution expanded the American comfort bubble to unprecedented size. It's amazing we can even get within 50 feet of one another here for all the bubble in between one person and the next. I said those words to keep the peace in this little microcosm we call the forum. I personally feel that American mindset and "Murica-think" has far too loud a voice in places like this where we have people from all over the globe. When I see people from outside America discussing American social politics as if it were the politics happening in their own countries of origin, I see a homogenization of cultures that I don't consider very positive at all. I'm a fan of the Trians (for so we have dubbed you two ) because of your noticeably pragmatic and sensible way, which I associate with Scandinavians. I don't want to live in a world where that is erased or where it somehow becomes offensive to point it out because it's some bizarre reverse anti-contra-quasi racism.
This thread is soooo gay! I grew up using the term gay and never equated it with homosexuality. I don't think it has nearly the connotation of fag. Fag is a direct insult to somebody and used to direct malice much like the word nigger. When you hear the infamous "N" word, you can feel the hate and bigotry behind it. Close your eyes and picture somebody using that word. Chances are most of us envision a back woods, loud-mouthed, ignorant redneck insulting an entire race or individual. Now would that same person say gay or fag or homo? What really surprises me is the adoption of the word queer by my gay friends. To me, queer is more insulting than gay. But, what would I know? There seems to be a lacking in insults for straight white males around my parts.
I'm American, and I fully support this message. I'm tired of the PC. Obviously I don't want to offend a person, but I think that context is key and is normally pretty clear to tell if someone meant to insult you. We haven't outlawed the word 'dog', however if you call someone a dog, it's a complete insult. However, 'yo dawg' is a common greeting for younger generations. When people call me a redneck or a cracka... well, it can be pretty fitting really. I'm not polished, I like guns, I like to go hunting, I would like a farm, and I wouldn't mind building a bonfire and getting drunk (hopefully without the guns. lol.). I think that we've gotten in this mindset where we HAVE to be offended when someone uses a certain word, even if it wasn't meant in a hurtful manner. My boyfriend and I drop f-bombs, gay-bombs (pretty rare really), n-bombs, retard-bombs and so-on constantly when we're in the privacy of our own home. If someone were to hear us, it may not go over so well. However, none of it is in a hurtful manner. It's not directed to anyone (besides him), and we know that we're joking. I just don't get it. Being PC is exhausting, and has made interacting with people even more difficult than it used to be. Can't we just go back to 'freedom of speech' and then if someone DOES say something hateful, you at least then know what kind of person it is that you're dealing with? To the OP: Leave all the words IN!!
Outside of writing I literally have no lines. I cross them all literally because fuck you. Ok not true I don't mention natural disasters or terrorism or victims of such because that's just tasteless. Everything else is fair game.
Oh yes, this, a thousand times this. The stories and stigmas attached to words shouldn't be forgotten or buried. Yes, their usage requires some policing, and people should be made aware of the whys, why calling your dark-skinned friend a nigger is not funny if you're yourself white. But to erase linguistic blunders from the vocabulary altogether feels almost like... avoiding responsibility. I think I've missed that post or didn't pay attention to it, so, just in case, I wasn't referring directly to anything you've said before with my comment. It was more in reference to Lewdog's observation: Lol! But here's the thing; a white person (or the white man) is still so privileged in some cultures we should be able to take jokes like that. It's almost like cracka jokes don't really kick someone who's already down. Yes, that's true. On the other hand, I feel more at home here than I did on another largely American writing forum. It was way more PC. Aw, I feel special! But to paraphrase one British urban fantasy writer: "to claim Scandinavians come from a less politically correct cultural background is bullshit. In fact, you guys are actually ignorant gits who use cultural heritage as an excuse to act like bigoted twits." Yeah, she seemed to think the world is one homogenous blob that consists of politically correct white upper middle-class females. I think you have a point there. Heh, me too That's what I was also talking about. Context matters.
I want to be philosophical/ cynical for a minute. The U.S culture, in my mind, runs on two basic principles: fear and competition. People cry about taxes, beat each other up on Black Friday for the best deals, and spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars on school so that their children can be the bosses of other children. Fear means fear of fines, fear of lawsuits, fear of being called out on harassment. This is the American mindset. We (US) don't live in an empathy based society. The PC police can come in and tell us not to use this word, or that thinking of this certain word in this or that context is "wrong," and the sad part is, the heart of the message is probably right. But in an empathy less country, the take home message really is, "don't use that word or else!" It's hard for me to take PC correctly, in many cases, when there is just so much other shit out there that no one ever bothers to care about. Can we get the realistic size of Africa on the map please (assuming what I've only recently learned is actually true!)? Can we get some sort of holiday in respect for the Native Americans, who really have been screwed? There are absolutely words that need to be prohibited. Historically racist words are the obvious, but at some point, I can't help but feel it just becomes about some specific group trying to exert their control on other groups through the latest tool of dominating others, "political correctness." That is how I feel about it, at least, in the contexts of an empathy-less culture. So, yes, there is a line, though I'm not sure where that line is exactly.
But who are the ones who get to decide what words need to be prohibited? Not only where do you draw that line, but who gets to draw it? If enough people are offended by the f-word, it could get banned. I think by banning words, it's just a long spiral down towards Big Brother, and in a sense, we're already there (hence all the PC). I also think that someone's reaction to negative use of such a word is very telling, as obviously it's pretty telling of the person it comes from as well.
That's kinda' what I meant by GenX holding the stigma and not the word. There comes a point when change is in progress that one needs to give permission and acknowledgment to success. I live in a time where gay couples are getting the right to marry and be legally recognized, where a show like Modern Family can portray a gay couple, with a child, as a part of a larger family unit. No idealization, no exploitation. Just people like other people with foibles and successes. On the day when I was born, March 13th 1970, such a thing would have been unthinkable! (1970) A gay couple on TV? Never! With a child??? Pervert molesters!!! Normal and accepted? The universe is literally coming to an end, make peace with your maker!! And yet there it is on TV. One doesn't have to like, but one does have to acknowledge that it exists and it speaks to social growth and success of inclusion. There has to come a point where we stop being offended by things that may not be what we were trained to think of them as being back when each of us got our life training. We have to accept that the next generation got a different training than we did, that they may well be applying a very different paradigm to the matter. I'm sure there are countless Boomers who gave birth to my generation that are mystified by the fact that I think nothing of and feel not the slightest bit of shock at seeing interracial couples.
I'm 15, and pretty much everyone my age I know, including me call things gay. We don't care if someone is gay, we treat them the same as straight people. You're right in that, we have completely seperated the two meanings of gay. Older people are the only ones who are still holding the grudge against using the word gay(In any way other than "homosexual") since it started off being used as "foolish or stupid" that way to insult gay people. I love history, and knowing it is important but moving on is also important. In my opinion we are doing gay people a favour by seperating the two meanings of gay, now you gay people don't have to be so insulted all the time. I'm going to be a little more controversial now as well, in that I think the same thing should happen with the word "nigger" and other racial or otherwise slurs. My bestfriend is black, he calls himself a nigger sometimes, sometimes I call him one, and sometimes other people do as well. He is never offended as he understands the idea of context and he thinks its incredibly stupid that some other black people(and a lot of white people as well) don't want to hear the n-word in ANY context.- who are also mostly older people. But luckily a lot of black people my age are like my bestfriend, they don't care that once it was a derogatory term because it no longer is always used as one. If someone calls them nigger with a context of insulting its obviously a different story, but that almost never happens(I honestly can only remember one time). And once again we are doing a favour, we are making it so you don't have to be offended by the n-word always. There were people offended by Django Unchained. They thought it was racist or insulting because of how often the word nigger was said, despite the fact the movie is based when thats how it actually was and its storyline is heavily dependent on slavery. Seems PC has gone to the point where we are trying to deny our history. Political correctness is absolute bullshit, learn how to understand context people!
I like the In Your Face -aspect of (re)claiming insults, like in your example @redreversed . If we can erase the stigma (we shouldn't erase it from dictionaries, though), we can disarm the real racists, bigots, homophobes, etc of at least some of their verbal weapons.
I've always found it very odd that black people can say 'nigga', but white people can't, no matter the context....whereas black people can say 'cracka', and it's perfectly acceptable. I believe you mentioned this previously, but living in a predominantly black neighborhood, it's really, REALLY true.
Yeah, I mentioned it, but I'm not sure if it can be reversed just like that. After all, whites oppressed and enslaved blacks for a long time while they haven't exploited white Americans nearly as much. I'm not saying it's okay or it shouldn't annoy some people, but I'm just wondering if it's a slightly different thing over there? Where I live, it's pretty offensive if a black person calls a white person "whiteface." You couldn't put it on daytime TV like they did with 'cracka' and Scrubs.
There's actually a difference. "Nigga" with an -a is more benign/socially acceptable and used as a greeting/whatever among friends or whomever, regaurdless of color. "Nigger" with an -er is derogatory and can be used even among black people as an insult for the "trashier" class of black folk and gang members/other segments of black culture that are frowned upon by their people.
While I understand that in writing in may be different (or perhaps known within the community), when it's coming out of someone's mouth, it normally sounds the same unless you're over-emphasizing the 'er'. I've seen guns drawn over white people uttering the term, even with an 'a' at the end.
There's a lot of things wrong with this post and I don’t mean this as an attack on you. I’ve heard a similar argument many times before. I can’t speak for every black person, but I’ll at least try to address some of this, as I see it. Firstly, "cracka" is not "perfectly acceptable.” It is still considered a slur, but is less offensive than “nigger.” It slips by the network censors because media censorship panders to squeaky wheels and deep pockets. If a sufficiently loud, sufficiently profitable organization called for “cracka” to be removed from the airwaves, it will be censored. Until then, that’s how the cracker crumbles. But, in real life formal situations, the word is still unacceptable. I dare anyone, black or otherwise, to walk into a job interview, for example, and greet a white interviewer with, “good morning, cracka” and see if you get the job. You won’t. Secondly, I’ve seen plenty of white people get away with saying “nigger.” I’ve also seen blacks get knocked the fuck out for saying it to other blacks. For some people, that word carries tremendous power. I am not one of those people. When using a word --any word-- you must read your audience first. With a word like “nigga,” which for centuries has been backed by a pressing tide of white-fueled hate, including slavery, lynchings, segregation, and more, you are playing with linguistic dynamite. You won’t get a “well, what I meant was...” moment if it blows up in your face. “Cracka” doesn’t have as much history and intensity behind it, but I still wouldn’t walk into a KKK meeting and scream “CRACKA” at the top of my lungs. Linguistic dynamite, meet powder keg audience. Older blacks, especially those who lived through the civil rights movement, seem to be in favor of retiring “nigger” from usage. I disagree. First of all, unless they plan to go around snipping vocal chords, they don’t have the power --nay, the RIGHT-- to retire a word and if we stop using it, that just means we’ve handed it back to the enemy, with exclusivity. The thought is almost laughable. Secondly, retiring a word doesn’t change the fact that there still is, and, IMO, always will be, a subset of the population who thinks every black person is a dirty, good-for-nothing nigger and they will still think it even if they lack the words to say it. Retiring, censoring, or removing a word is one of the most pointless exercises a person can engage in. Nevertheless, I do sympathize with your situation. It’s not something that will always make sense to you or me. Intent is everything and there is a large portion of the black population that is very distrustful of whites and will not give the benefit of the doubt. Until that changes, remember your audience. I, for one, would not walk into an NAACP meeting and scream “nigga” any faster than I would scream “cracka” at a klan gathering. These people read intent differently from the norm. Changing a letter does not change intent. The “–er” rendition is often considered more archaic and, thus, more closely associated with a time when that word had no positive connotation. The more stylized “nigga” is a fairly recent (last 30-40 years) invention, and dates to a time when blacks began to turn the original usage on its head. Either way, I think the “–a” vs. “–er” thing is a load of hogwash, promoted by people who either don’t actually know why they’re using the word or like to mislead others. They’re the same damn thing. The definitions you laid out above are frequently used interchangeably.
