Timben, It's not an argument or a war. People are answering your question(s) based upon their knowledge and experience. Boiling it down from my perspective...if you're intending to: Self-publish, you need to hire an editor Seek 'traditional' publication with a publisher, you don't need to hire an editor You will have some folks tell you that if your work is a mess (you're grammar, for example, is such a mess that it completely distracts from the story) then you might need to hire an editor to get it in better condition to improve the chances before you send it off to a market. I cannot speak to that, as I don't know the quality of your end product. As an author/writer, we are often blind to things (plot holes, inconsistencies, grammar gaffs, etc.) that might be obvious to another reader (editor). I'm an English teacher and I need an editor. Do my manuscripts have fewer grammar errors than other writers? Possibly. But it's also about storytelling. I was on a panel at ConCarolinas with a Baen Books editor. He reiterated to the audience that their policy is that Story Trumps All. That's them. Other markets, if they look at a manuscript, they may decide that it's in such condition that despite the story, it will take more time to get into shape for publication than it's worth. Time is money too. Editing takes time. A lot of time and focused effort. Hours and hours and hours. Twenty or forty hours, or possibly more to edit a novel. That's time out if the individual's life. Time that most would desire to get some form of reimbursement. Think of it like this (this is not a perfect analogy, but hopefully will give another view): There are some really skilled and talented tattoo artists that are very inexpensive. Someone might even be able to cajole such an artist into giving a tattoo for free. But in general, the more talented and skilled and experienced tattoo artists are paid a higher fee for their service. Other tattoo artists with lesser skill and talent and experience, generally earn less--because the end product isn't quite the same. Of course, some artists have specialties, specific areas at which they excel, and that can be taken into consideration too. But, in the end, the choice made will impact the tattoo that they will have and show the world, today and ten years from today. Maybe find an online or local writers' crit group. Learn and improve through interaction and sharing. Maybe exchange editing services with another member. If writing a successful novel was easy, everyone would be doing it. Again this is not an argument or a war. You just have to take what others have said, sifting through if there is conflicting information, and decide what makes sense and is right for you and your situation, and move forward. Or not...
Slow down, buddy. Yes, you are wrong about quite a bit of this. You've already been told you're wrong. Why do you want to stay wrong, especially when your wrong belief isn't something you want to believe in? Take a few deep breaths, and relax. First - there's no such thing as a self-publishing publishing house. That's an oxymoron. So you can chose to send your work to a publisher (either a small publisher, or a larger publisher through an agent) or you can self-publish. Assuming you want to go through a publisher, you need to believe that agents and publishers are interested in new writers. That's just reality, and it's a good reality, so I don't know why you're fighting so hard against accepting it. I've had a lot of books published through small publishers, and the first book I got published was the first thing I'd ever submitted anywhere. I was new, and they wanted me. A few years later I decided to look for a larger market and submitted a new book to agents, without mentioning anything else I'd gotten published. The agents didn't know I wasn't brand new, and they still wanted to represent the book. And when they started trying to sell the book they didn't mention my previous writing because we were going to be starting a new pen name and the publishers might appreciate the ability to promote the book as a debut. The book sold no problem, even without a writing history attached. Being new is not that big of a deal, and can even be a selling point. Seriously. For now, why don't you focus on your writing, and make sure it's a good as it can be? Because publishers don't care whether you're new or established, but they very much care whether your book is good or not.
Yes, you're wrong. --Not everyone new to writing is writing about vampires and werewolves. I know, it was hyperbole --You can get a publisher without an agent. It depends on which houses you're interested in, and some on your genre. With fantasy and SF, many major US publishers don't require an agent to submit unsolicited manuscripts (slush). Some houses require them, although I've you'll find rare instances where someone sent an unagented query and eventually sold a novel to them. Smaller publishing houses don't require agents, but they often don't offer as large of advances as the major houses and their distribution is not nearly as strong (not all publishers--large and small--are not equal). Will a good/reputable agent help you find a publisher? Yes. Will they guaranteed? No, but your chances are better, as they have knowledge of those working in major publishing houses and working relationships and can get a manuscript in front of the editor who would be interested. They (agents) make their living selling books to publishers, as they get a % of what the author earns. If they don't get novels contracted to publishers, they don't earn anything, and will have to find another career. --Are the odds against an unknown author? Yes, they are. Baen Books publishes about 1% of the novels submitted to them by new authors (you're competing against all those new authors trying to get published, and with the established ones--that's already been mentioned earlier). But there is more than one publisher out there, and if you don't try, you won't succeed. There is no one single 'right' path to publication. You need to find the one that will work best for you. It's going to require research and studying on your part. Take what you're being told in this thread and elsewhere on the internet and research and find that path that will offer you the best chance of success, based upon your goals, skills, genre, etc.
Except no one said that. Not one post here said that. What I said was that publishers are not interested in a new writer's work that they do not believe will sell. 50 years ago, when publishing houses were privately held companies that accepted unsolicited manuscripts (the term then in use was "over the transom"), they would take on a writer whom they believed needed seasoning and publish his/her first book or two in limited runs, assigning an editor to work with him/her and see that (s)he improved to the point where his/her books would sell. That doesn't happen. But if you submit a ms to an agent and the agent thinks it will sell, the agent will then pitch it to an editor. There are also small houses that still accept unagented submissions. There are also certain university presses that publish fiction, and they typically accept unagented submissions. But in every case, the two metrics in play - the only two - are 1) is it my kind of thing (ie. the agent's or editor's) and 2) will it sell? Good luck.
Honestly, considering the quality of a lot of manuscripts being submitted, I'm shocked Baen's acceptance rate is as high as 1%. So the number 1% doesn't mean that 100 fantastic stories, just as good as the stories from established writers, are submitted and Baen rejects 99 of them. It means, I'm guessing, 100 stories are submitted, of which only a few are written to a high standard and are in the style Baen wants. Assuming your MS is good and is in the Baen style, your chance of being accepted is really pretty high, I'd think.
TWErvin2, stated that I should find an online or local writers' crit group. I would but again I was told you never put what you want published on-line whether its on a forum or not, because people usually wind up taking that idea. I never said, you people on this forum, I said I was informed that. Second, I don't do crit groups, because I do not handle crit very well. I usually loose my temper when it comes to that. It burns me up, when people makes fun or puts my work down. And No I don't have tough skin, I can't help it, it was the way I was born. The only reason I want to publish my stories, has nothing to do with money (not like I would get any, anyway), is so that my family would be proud of me. That is soul reason I want to publish what I started.
Although you're correct in this assertion, technically there are 'self-publishing publishing houses'--or you'll come across them online. They're a form of what many call 'vanity presses' where you hire them to do the editing and cover art and buy the ISBN and format and print (ebook/paper) and place them for sale on the regular online markets. They tout themselves as publishers that help authors self-publish. From what I've seen (I've not looked into this in any great depths) their rates are far far higher than if the author would contract with an editor, artist, etc. on their own. There might be some narrow reasons for a writer to go with such a houses. Such publishers make their money from fees they charge to authors, and not so much selling books (their business model). There are other threads that discuss this. (a little off topic--but figured I'd mention this if someone does some online research and does come across this)
I am repeating what two editors for Baen indicated while I was participating on panels with them. I think it might be less than 1% too. They are interested in new writers with great stories...but breaking into their publishing schedule is a limiting factor in how many manuscripts they can contract.
Nope. People don't steal your ideas if you post them online. Ideas are a dime a dozen, and every prospective writer wants to use their own. ETA: and you should be able to find a critique group that won't make fun of your work or put it down, but you absolutely need a critique group that will, well, critique. They need to share what they think of your work, honestly, or there's no point in taking part. If you can't handle that level of critique, you won't be able to handle editing, either, so... hopefully you can work on finding a level of criticism that's acceptable to you.
Well, there are also magic diet pills that allow you to eat everything in sight and never exercise and still lose weight, if you believe what people say online. Vanity presses are definitely a thing, and I agree they're a bad thing, but they're not self-publishing publishing houses, they're vanity presses.
Now look, don't be that way, I was only stating what I had seen on forums and was told. You don't have be a smart aleck about it. If you don't want to comment then please stop responding to it. I'm waiting on you or someone else to report me to the MOD and have me banned. I'd come here looking for trouble, despite what you think.
I was responding to TW Ervin, not you. I think I will leave this thread, though, because I don't think you're hearing anything you're being told. So, good luck with your writing!
Don't worry, I've contacted this site and see if they can't ban me from posting. Cause no matter what I say, everyone on this site has twisted everything I said.
I think the problem here is that we're confusing new writer and newly published writer. The cure to not being a new writer is to practice writing and learn about writing over a long period until you are not a new writer any more. Anyone can stop themselves being a new writer without paying an editor. It just takes time and patience. Publishers aren't going to take on people who haven't learned to write, but they are going to take on writers who haven't been published before. One guy who used to work for me, just got his first published novel released last month with Harper Voyager. So I've seen that it happens. He's been writing for at least ten years (that's how long I've known him) and I gather a fair bit longer than that. I'm not sure an editor is the way to go until you've made a fair amount of progress in learning how to write. Early on there would be so much to change that if they could turn it into something publishable, they'd basically be ghost writing it for you and that's not a good economical choice unless you're a celebrity.
Would you be so kind as to explain it a little more in reference in "Publishers aren't going to take on people who haven't learned to write, but they are going to take on writers who haven't been published before."
People have said that publishers are willing to consider new writers. Maybe the conflict here is in the definition of "new writer". In this thread, most people mean writers who have not yet been traditionally published. Maybe you mean writers who are still learning to write? Publishers do accept not-yet-published writers all the time. But those not-yet-published writers have generally spent years improving their writing. However, that improvement doesn't need to cost any significant amount of money--it's mostly about writing and writing and writing, for hundreds and hundreds of hours. Sure, there are books and classes and you could in theory hire editors, but you can also check the books out of the library and participate in writing groups.
I'll reply to this and then I'm out of this conversation because there's not much else I can add. With respect to online groups. I indicated if you got conflicting information, you'd have to sift through those opinions and do what you believe is proper for you. If people critting your work are putting you down or making fun of you, you're working with the wrong people--or you're taking their criticism wrong. People who are reading and critting your work are doing just that. They are commenting and making suggestions on the novel or story, not on you. If they are commenting on you, then it is not a crit group to be involved in, and you'd be right to be offended. If you don't have a tough skin, maybe being an author isn't for you. How will you work with a publishing house's editor? What will happen, if your work is published and reviewers offer poor reviews, criticizing the story or the writing or the content or the accuracy? It's going to happen. Even great quality novels receive bad/negative reviews. Will you be setting yourself up for some severe bouts of anger and unhappiness? If you're not interested in earning any money (which is equivalent to building a wide readership/selling books) it's unlikely that a publisher will be all that interested in publishing you. (You could self-pub and give away your novels--make them free to download and read.) I guess you could disguise or withhold such information from them, but any publisher (large or small) expects the author to participate in marketing in some fashion. The odds of the publisher losing money through publishing your work is far higher if you don't participate. We're not talking road trip book tours or anything, but an online presence, doing interviews, responding to reader emails and such at a minimum is expected. And if you get angry over negative reviews, and respond to them? Let's just say there are plenty of examples where authors did such and the response resulted in a nasty backlash and ended in disaster for the author and their published work(s). Having what's called 'a thick skin' is necessary for the business, from getting rejection letters from agents/publishers and having your work 'critted' during the writing and editing process, to getting bad reviews once published. If your soul purpose or goal is to point out your published novel to family and friends and that's the end, the reason you went through the process, then the chances for success are far less, at least as I see it. Family being proud as a major component of the reason to persevere? That's different. There is nothing wrong with your soul purpose, other than it might deter your success as or becoming a published author. If you're seeking publication for the soul purpose of showing your family, you might have better success working to get short stories published in magazines or anthologies. While such publishers would appreciate promotional efforts by authors, it's not really part of the 'deal' as it is with publishers of novel-length works. Good luck. Do your research and writing, and finish that project. I wish you the greatest success in reaching your goals.
That's generally true, if it's a piece of writing that you actually want to publish. But if you're developing your writing skills, you will write a whole lot of pieces for practice, pieces that you then throw away. So I'd recommend writing a throwaway piece, one that you put your best skills into but don't put your heart and soul into, and then request a critique. If your grammar and other writing skills need work, you could do this for quite some time before you run into the issue of needing an opinion on a piece that you actually plan to submit for publication.
When I joined here I wrote some stuff specifically to post and for people to critique. Hoping to improve my skills. But I found giving critiques is just as helpful if not more so. It's much easier to spot flaws in someone else's story then your own. And after your done when you go back to writing your own piece and find yourself making the same mistake you can catch it.
Changing the subject -- can you answer me this question -- how many books does a new writer have to have completed before a publisher/agent whatever will consider taking you on as a future client?
There are a lot of unpublished writers out there. Hundreds of thousands of hobbyists hoping to make it one day. And publishers only agree to publish novels from a small number of unpublished writers each year. Competition is fierce. If you're not a good writer, publishers won't pick you as one of their handful. They don't need to. They will have far better options. The solution to get yourself in the running is to become a good writer. (i.e learn how to write) There are all sorts of ways to learn how to write. (Reading lots of published fiction and analysing the techniques your favorite writers use, reading how-to-write books, being critiqued, critiquing, courses, workshops, hanging out in writing forums etc) Sometimes this forum has debated the pros and cons of these different things, but the ingredients that everyone agrees on are lots of time, patience and writing practice. Pardon me if I'm wrong, but from the way you've described your writing, it sounds like you haven't yet put much effort into improving. No one starts off as good enough to be published, but some people are persistent enough that they become excellent writers and give themselves a good chance.
Just FYI, the main reason that you shouldn't put your work-that-you-hope-to-publish on the Internet is not because people might steal your ideas, but because once it's on the Internet, it's "published". I mention this because it means that you also want to think before "publishing" your work in other ways--for example, if you publish it on your own blog, or in a no-pay online magazine, etc., that reduces the work's future value for paying venues. That doesn't mean that you can't publish in those places, but you should know that once you do, you have to some extent "used up" that piece.
Just one. I wouldn't get too ahead of the process or down on the process of publishing until you try it. The most important thing is getting a book done and polished. Then worry about publishing. Anyone can do it. S.E. Hinton was eighteen when they published her novel The Outsiders. She worked on it for two years.
