White Supremacy

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by ShadowScribbler, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Houston
    I think that's more than just a guess.

    With the way mass media works today, publishers want to get the most for their money. There really isn't money to be made writing a book where you are automatically restricting yourself to a minority group of people. And that's probably why you don't see too many books out there where the main character is a "minority" in a sense where the race of the character actually matters (there are plenty of stories where the MC is black or asian or hispanic and the story could have been written with them being white and nothing would've changed). Book publishing doesn't have the room for an "alternative" scene the way that TV and music does.
     
  2. AlexSivier

    AlexSivier New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kyoto, Japan
    I think the only 'problem' here, would be if non-caucasian writers are feeling forced to include white MCs because of the market. I think that would be just as bad as forcing caucasian writers to write from a racial minority perspective just to be 'diverse'.
     
  3. Devrokon

    Devrokon New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    "There really isn't money to be made writing a book where you are automatically restricting yourself to a minority group of people."

    Yeah, I think agentkirb really hit the nail on the head here.
     
  4. Lightman

    Lightman Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    8
    If mass market science fiction/mystery/romance is pop music, then so-called "serious fiction" is alternative.

    I feel like a lot of people on this forum have a very limited view of things.
     
  5. ScreamsfromtheCrematory

    ScreamsfromtheCrematory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    I imagine one could say that rather than merely writing from the view or of ethnic minorities you could do the creative thing (COUGHCOUGHCOUGH) and essentially use fictional made-up races that don't necessarily look anything like ethnic minorities but capture a lot of the same ideas. I mean series like Star Wars and supposedly Lord of the Rings have a lot of fictional races that have been said to be similar to actual real world ethnic groups, to varying degrees of controversy. If you follow that view, then technically yeah, minorities do pop up a lot, albeit not as actual minorities.
     
  6. Cacian

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,877
    Likes Received:
    5
    supremacy as I understand it goes beyong skin colour gender or race.
    supremacy is a form inferiority complex that manifests itself in its opposite effect which is the superiority complex.
    one feels compeled to outdo someone else on the ground of anyhting and everything.
    supremacy is present in everyday life and could be anythign from skin colour to sexual tendencies to religions and so when writing I am very careful to have all my characters on a neutral grounds.
    no mention or even remotely hint to the idea that one character might be taller or even cleverer then the other.
    I remember hearing about the last book in the series of Harry Potter( I am not a fan by the way) and someone somwehre saying that one of the character in her last book might( I think Dumbledore) might be said to have homosexual tendencies.
    at that very minute I thought that goes to confirm why I never actually took fancy to HarryPotter and why I always doubted the writer's ability to impress me to want to read it let alone watch it.
    the point here I am trying to make is that characters are best when we know harldy nothing ot their private lives and what they look like. The more we know about their characetrs and their charms the better and the less we know about what they look like, wear,eat or what their skin colour is or even their gender the more better for it.
    I much prefer to keep the mystery of guessing all of that for my self as I have films and televisions to give me all of that.
     
  7. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,539
    Likes Received:
    59
    Location:
    Sweden
    I try to include different races and cultures in my stories, partly because I like writing from different perspectives, partly to promote diversity, partly to give the story more universal appeal, and partly because it's more realistic to have people from all over the world in certain types of stories (for example, spy stories, or alien invasion stories).

    But it's hard to write about other cultures. If you try to research it from books or online, you find a lot of information about old traditions and festive occasions, but not much about all the little details that make up everyday, modern life.

    For example, let's say I'm a non-Swede trying to write about a typical lunch between ordinary people in Sweden. If I google "Swedish food", I get the impression that Swedes eat a lot of meatballs and fermented fish (in reality, meatballs is simple, everyday food, while most people only eat fermented fish on Christmas, Midsummer and Easter). But Wikipedia also mentions that pizza is a common fast food

    So, armed with this knowledge, I let my characters sit down in a small pizza place in their neighbourhood, and the waiter comes up to take their order... BEEP! Wrong! Swedish fast food places don't wait at the tables - wages are too high for that. And fast food pizza places are usually so small, you order by the register and the waiter/cook brings the pizza to the table.
    So the waiter/cook comes up with their pizza, and says in the local dialect... BEEP! Wrong! I've practically never seen an ethnic Swede work at a fast food pizza place. It's almost always immigrants who run them. And if you think they're Italian, you'd probably be wrong too. They're often from an Eastern European country like Czechnya or Slovakia.
    So one of the guys says that he's working as a consultant at a large engineering firm, and a woman asks him if there are many unmarried men there... BEEP! A Swedish woman would be embarrassed to ask that, since she doesn't want it to seem like having a man was the most important thing in her life.

    Well, I think you see where I'm going. How presumptuous is it not to believe I could write about being a black person in the USA, or being a Korean working in Australia, or about living in a small village in Ukraine?
    Still, I can't help trying. By writing my characters as individuals and making them engaing, I hope that most idiosyncracies will slip past the reader unnoticed.
     
  8. Ettina

    Ettina Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    55
    Exactly!

    I have a great idea for a story. In one setting where superpowers can be triggered by psychological trauma, I was thinking of including a child soldier who has the ability to resurrect the dead. But I'm worried that as a white girl who has never been to Africa, I won't possibly be able to write a convincing African kid. Which is ridiculous, because I feel no such hesitation about my 2,000 year old Roman vampire kid even though I have never lived in Ancient Rome.
     
  9. AmyHolt

    AmyHolt New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    473
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Warsaw, IN
    Wow, I really like that idea, superpowers triggered by psyhological trauma. Maybe you could write the story and then see if through a forum or other means you could hook up with someone who is more like your character and have them help you tweak the character. Because I really want to read that story.
     
  10. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,539
    Likes Received:
    59
    Location:
    Sweden
    I bet you haven't even been a vampire. :p
     
  11. foosicle

    foosicle New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Uh, write more and encourage others to write more. This too shall pass.
     
  12. Yasin

    Yasin New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    UK
    I'm a Primary School Teacher, and reading and being exposed to different children's books everyday, it is quite rare that you will find a character that is not white. This is more apparent in children's books because they are illustrated. Probably because there arent that many Black or Asian Authors who have published books out there, and like someone has already mentioned...you write what you know.
    Something that was done several years ago in our school was that a group of childen (white, black and asian) all aged 6 years old were given a choice of 3 dolls to play with...One black, one brown, and one white doll. In the test, 95% of children chose to play with the white doll over all of the rest. Just something to think about.
     
  13. Prolixitasty

    Prolixitasty New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    One short read which is pertinent to this entire discussion is Toni Morrison's 'Playing in the Dark'. In it she outlines how the concept of white supremacy is created out of American history and it relied heavily on the aboriginal peoples of America and Africa. Supremacy is based on domination and without a subservient populace to excerise that power on, one cannot attain supremacy. However, at the same time, while this supremacy is being propagated it cannot ignore the cultural mixture and essential association which occurs between the dominator and the dominated. This means that your concept of white supremacy, even to this day, relies on the notion that other skin colors are subservient to it.

    Now, the problem I see, as it pertains to the OPs question is this. Writers try to be progressive and act as if they accept eachother and respect equality and the right to live and the right to rights. However, at the same time, the culture which they are a part of (in North America) have such a deep acceptance of white supremacy that they cannot help but allow (if they even notice) it into their writing. The majority of wealthy homeowners in America are white, the majority of politicians are white, etc. It can't be ignored, and it effects writers.
     
  14. juniorfletcher

    juniorfletcher New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    you wait....i'm creating this militant, bean pie eating, hardcore Brother from the hood.....one of those Brothers who follow the five percent nation of islam....Huey Newton on steroids
     
  15. ShadowScribbler

    ShadowScribbler New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    You guys have pitched in with invaluable views and opinions, and I thank you for it! The main of my concerns may have been that I was writing or plotting, really, my fantasy novel and thinking of the humans in it, the MCs tend to be white and resemblant of European societies, yes. I don't think that I should change my story in order to walk out of that mold, but likewise, I don't feel the need to include other races just for diversity. In fact, if I were to toss in dark-skinned folk, I doubt they'd be a minority at all.

    I would be, however, slightly concerned about writing an African character considering how little I know about that culture and its subcultures. Likewise, I won't write about a police officer if I don't know much about that line of work -- that's what research is for, though.
     
  16. Brandon P.

    Brandon P. Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    California
    One of my fantasy WIP's two protagonists is a black woman who is the matriarch of a fairly advanced civilization (think ancient Egypt) while the other is a white male "barbarian" who falls in love with her and joins her on a quest to save her country. The antagonists were originally going to be Greek and Middle Eastern, but while I plan to keep the minor Greek antagonists, I now feel like changing the main one from Middle Eastern to black because I've decided he should live in the world's jungle rather than desert.
     
  17. Brandon P.

    Brandon P. Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    California
    It would be more accurate to say that the jungle-dwellers in my world are all black, not that all the black people live in the jungle (the heroine's country has a savanna environment).
     
  18. joanna

    joanna Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Boston
    Such a relief while sifting through dozens and dozens of responses about why there are 'so many white writers writing so many white characters' to find that somebody out there gets it.

    This was a succinct comment that drove the point home and I feel like a lot of people either grazed by it or didn't get it.

    Maybe there are so many white writers writing so many white people's stories because that's what you're choosing to read.
     
  19. JillOfHearts

    JillOfHearts New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    I agree with you.
    Really, we're better than we used to be. Have you ever heard a traditional Japanese, Aboriginal, African, etc. story? Chances are, they only have people from that race in there.
    To me, write what you like to read and use characters that fit the story. If you want a character to be of a different race, I won't stop you. But don't feel that you need to.
     
  20. Yoshiko

    Yoshiko Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    31
    I think that an observation like this says more about the person reading the novels rather than saying something about the writers themselves.

    I don't notice this "white supremacy" because it is not true in the books I read. Of my six favourite authors one is English, one is Korean-American and four are Japanese. My three favourite poets are American, Scottish and Chinese. Of these eight people only the British and American authors/poets consistently produces white MCs (and, yes, all three are/were white). All of their work contains characters of their own nationalities and that's okay. Of course there are characters of other races present but that's expected in most stories, right?

    Personally, I have a diverse cast which reflects the environment of the dormitory I was living in during my first year of college. I've also lived in multiple countries, as well as simply living with and dating people of other races, so I feel comfortable enough with writing people of other race/nationalities.
     
  21. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Loch na Seilg, Alba
    I find it fascinating how people who go out of their way to enforce 'equality' on the one hand then go on to talk about 'white characteristics' on the other. At the end of the day, does it really matter? All this talk of 'Eurocentrism,' 'white supremacy,' 'racism,' etc. is either inane or self-explanatory.
     
  22. Brandon P.

    Brandon P. Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    California
    Because we should simply ignore the Eurocentric status quo and pretend everything's equal instead of challenging it. Pure genius!
     
  23. Lightman

    Lightman Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    8
    Actually I'm glad you mentioned the word - Eurocentrism describes the situation much better than "white supremacy."
     
  24. Brandon P.

    Brandon P. Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    California
    To be fair, a major reason for the Eurocentrism in Western pop culture probably has to do with most people in the West being white people (Western culture is after all of European origin). I do believe a lot of people all over the world harbor at least subconscious racial prejudice, but I doubt most authors who write mostly or only white characters mean any actual malice towards people of color.

    I will also add that I personally own many fantasy novels with non-white characters in non-Western-inspired settings. They may not be as common as the white stuff, but they're definitely out there if you look hard enough.
     
  25. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    is 'supremacy' [or 'domination'] really what the op means, or is it actually just the preponderance of white [caucasian] writers writing about mostly white characters?

    the problem with that complaint is that it is only true for those who live in predominantly white-populated countries in the western world, and do not read in any language other than their own, or english... in such cases, it's certainly true that white writers/characters far outnumber any other race, which is only natural... we generally write 'what we know' y'know...

    however, those who live in india and only read in hindi might complain about a lack of writers/characters from other races and cultures, just as would those who live in any other non-caucasian part of the world and read no other language but their own...

    so, the writer of that article only displayed his/her own insularism and lack of common sense, imo...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice