Who thinks Eragon is a copy of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings?

Discussion in 'Discussion of Published Works' started by Fullmetal Xeno, Jul 18, 2011.

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  1. Mallory

    Mallory Contributor Contributor

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    I didn't intend to attack you specifically. Yes, virtually all stories will have separate parts marked by the departure, initiation, and return as you put it. I meant to say that they don't flow in the exact same way as the other outline you provided - for example, not all stories have the unusual birth or the supernatural help, etc.

    What I was lashing out against are the types of people who say things like "No story is unique/it's all a rehash because stories often follow common plot structures." If you believe that a person's story can be unique, then this isn't you. ;)
     
  2. anamardoll

    anamardoll New Member

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    I actually believe that all stories are unique and yet no stories are unique. :D

    I would describe people the same way. Every person is "unique", but at the same time we're all collections of traits, body parts, past experiences, hopes, dreams, fears, and motivations that have all been done before somewhere else.

    But then I'm a big subscriber to the Monomyth. Or as I call it nowadays, "TV Tropes". :)

    (Hi. I'm Ana. I'm new. Nice to meet you all. :))
     
  3. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    > I've not read Eragon, but looking at it now in the "look inside" feature of Amazon, I can see this 15 year old still had a talent for writing. His langage and ability to deliver the story, with advanced descriptive ability, is still really impressive at that age. People seem to neglect this fact in favour of bashing its similarities, which undoubtedly are there.

    (Sorry, the quote function here is not working properly for me.)

    While Eragon's prose (and, by extension, Paolini's descriptive ability) may be above average for a fifteen year old, it is definitely not up to the standard that one would expect from a published novel. He meanders quite a lot, and his prose is often overly flowery. He also has a problem with characterization- for example, the time Eragon kills a soldier (who is a teenager, and was conscripted against his will, and was begging for his life and fleeing with his back turned to Eragon.... And yet nobody actually saw a problem with this), or the Elven society (oh-so perfect, although the third book did begin to move away from that at least). He also suffers from very bad pacing issues, especially in the third book of the series.

    While it's not a terrible novel, it is still not as high-quality as one would expect from a published novel even on a structural level, let alone going in to a narrative level.
     
  4. rainshine

    rainshine New Member

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    There was a lot of tell not show in the last one. long speeches that disengaged the reader. I hated the fact there
    was no definate ending to each novel and dismayed to end book three only to find there is going to be a book four
    yes it was very Lord of the Rings and he admits this was his inspiration. I found his constant writing in the active voice
    tiring all though this improved later on. but over all rohnans story was excellent, I have to finish to see if eragon
    gets the girl and there is a happy ending.
     
  5. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    Even Roran's story wasn't free of it. Take the whole fifty lashes thing- fifty lashes could kill a person. Roran should rightfully have been dead. Or his killing what was it, over two hundred enemies at once?
     
  6. Hex44

    Hex44 New Member

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    'Froggit' what you guys are saying. I cant wait fir the last book to come out. :here are no elves or dragons in starwars. Theres stars and theres war, plain and simple. If you really want to compare literature write and "original" work of your own and contrast its ideas and plot and characters with that of your favorite comic, book, tv series, movies, or myth. See how that works out. And yes Im just trollin.
     
  7. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    While you can claim that the Hero's Journey is a classic archetype and Eragon just follows it, well... Just take a look at this article:

    http://impishidea.com/criticism/26/eragon-eldest-a-star-wars-plot-recap

    (I don't know how to add links to text, sorry.)

    It's more than just copying the Hero's Journey archetype. Compare Harry Potter to Star Wars. While you can certainly draw parallels, can you draw them to the extent that the article above has done?
     
  8. rainshine

    rainshine New Member

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    Definitely not waiting for the last book groan had enough to be honest. Ha ha though I agree with the fifty lashes and 200 dead I must have been too swept up in that bit of the story to start thinking about realism. Actually aria and eragon I will leave dangling in the unread fiction universe I really cant read any more of it.
     
  9. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    A lot of the book really requires you to not think about it all to enjoy it. For example, Eragon's killing of that conscripted soldier- so long as you don't think about it, his reasoning is sound, but once you do, it's like whoah, wait, what?
     
  10. JPGriffin

    JPGriffin New Member

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    Quoting option is being difficult-
    BrighterNexus- "For example, Eragon's killing of that conscripted soldier- so long as you don't think about it, his reasoning is sound, but once you do, it's like whoah, wait, what? "

    Where was this scene? I guess maybe because it's downplayed I missed it, but I still think I would have noticed that. The only particular soldier that I remember is the one that lost his shield to Roran (sorry if I misspell. It's been some time since I read the series). Something along the lines of, "Well, that's what I get for using my weapon badly." Roran replies, "Yep," and kills him. I think the book lacks the severity of actually killing someone, and Paolini even makes a joke out of it in the third book, where Eragon looks through his victim's eyes before he kills them- is this the same person that had been horrified at the thought of draining energy from grass?

    As for the topic at hand, I've heard it being criticized for its unoriginality, but I don't see too much connections. I'm not saying that most books follow this structure, but there have been numerous books with the whole "Single (or two) people decide the fate of the world" idea, LOTR and Star Wars being only a few examples. In terms of the whole "Relationship" between Eragon and Arya, it's the repetative "Star-crossed lovers" idea, and it's all about a boy that's going after a woman centuries older than him (Don't quote me on that- it's just my best guess). And personally, I think that originality these days is a rarity, not just in writing, but in everything. It's not my favorite series, but I hate to not finish a book series.
     
  11. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    Luckily, I have the book at hand. So, let's provide a few quotes, shall we?

    > "Lie?" roared Eragon. "I do not lie!" Thrusting out with his mind, he engulfed Sloan's consciousness with his own and forced the butcher to accept memories that confirmed the truth of his statements. He also wanted Sloan to feel the power that was now his and to realize that he was no longer entirely human. And while Eragon was reluctant to admit it, he enjoyed having control over a man who had often made trouble for him and also tormented him with gibes, insulting both him and his family. He withdrew a half minute later.

    > The horses had scattered. Only three soldiers remained alive. Arya was grappling with two of them some distance away while the third and final soldier fled south along the road. Gathering his strength, Eragon pursued him. As he narrowed the gap between them, the man began to plead for mercy, promising he would tell no one about the massacre and holding out his hands to show they were empty. When Eragon was within an arm's reach, the man veered to the side and then a few steps later changed direction again, darting back and forth around the countryside like a frightened jackrabbit. All the while, the man continued to beg, tears streaming down his cheeks, saying that he was too young to die, that he had yet to marry and father a child, that his parents would miss him, and that he had been pressed into the army and this was only his fifth mission and why couldn't Eragon leave him alone? "What have you against me?" he sobbed. "I only did what I had to do. I'm a good person!"

    Eragon paused and forced himself to say: "You can't keep up with us. We can't leave you; you'll catch a horse and betray us."

    "No, I won't!"

    "People will ask what happened here. Your oath to Galbatorix and the empire won't let you lie. I'm sorry, but I don't know how to release you from your bond, except..."

    "Why are you doing this? You're a monster!" screamed the man. With an expression of pure terror, he made an attempt to dash around Eragon and return to the road. Eragon overtook him in less than ten feet, and as the man was still crying and asking for clemency, Eragon wrapped his left hand around his neck and squeezed. When he relaxed his grip, the soldier fell across his feet, dead.



    Wow, this takes far too long to type. Oh well.

    Don't forget the Trial of the Long Knives (apparently, the test of a good leader is whether they can stand to cut their wrists more than the opposition can); the 50 lashes handed to Roran (for disobeying orders and actually saving his team because the orders were faulty and ill-thought out); Roran killing 200 men at once (when in the previous book, he had nearly thrown up after killing one); and so on, so forth.
     
  12. Unit7

    Unit7 Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks for reminding me where that incident occured with Eragon killing that conscripted soldier. I for the life of me couldnt remember when that happened. I read someone elses view on it and it reminded me of something. For me its not so much that he killed the man but how he did it. If I remember correctly he seems to value the life of an ant more then his fellow human. Eragon knows plenty of ways to kill a man with magic. So why not instead of stranging the person, give him a merciful death? Also dislike that Arya only protested for a second and then... well was like "oh your right!' and such.

    While I wouldnt have minded the killing of this soldier to much if it werent for the fact that it seems Eragon keeps swinging from even an ants life is valuable and yet he kills humans without hesitation. Doing a piss poor job of explaining myself but it feels so unbalanced.

    Now to Roran and his lashes.

    I actually was curious about this and I started googling. The truth is... well it depends on what was used to whip Roran. If it were a Cat of Nine Tails then Roran would be more then dead. I only knew that it had well 9 tails. Never knew they made them with broken glass, bent nails, and other such things.

    But it is possible, or so what I have gathered which isnt much, to survive 50 lashes. It would depend on the type of whip that was used. I also read that it was common to give someone 39 lashes. I forget the reasoning, I think it had to do with religion or something, but it was 1 less then what was 'lethal'

    If I remember correctly we were never given an exact detail of the whip. So... yeah. 50 is suvivable if only just barely. Now whats really buggy about this isnt whether or not he should survive. Its the fact he fights an urgal a short time after. Screw the healing and all, within the week he was wresttling a urgal and won.

    Now Roran was supposed to be a badass, but CP did a bit to much to establish it.

    Now for the reason he was whipped, Its for not following orders. Thats the one thing thats always bugged me... even real life examples makes me go 'really?'

    As for the 200 kills. Well 193 kills. Yeah that does seem a bit much. I mean in real life there are men who have done some incredible stuff. Stuff that most likely we would be calling BS if it were in a movie/book. However even with the funnel that forced the enemy soldiers to go in 1 on 1 the situation is just unbelievable. I dont mind him having a high killcount... but that high in a single battle like that? He'd be entirely to weak to lift his hammer. The adranaline may have kept him going for awhile but... yeah.

    Also out of 193 men. Did none of them just thing to lay a mini siege? I mean Roran has litterally blocked off everything so that only 1 or so people can make it to them at a time. Block that off and wait.

    That or get some damn lamp oil in some bottle and make your self a maltov cocktail. or some other flammable material.

    Well that wasnt just one book previous aswell. That was several months, and one hellish journey from Carvahall, through the mostly unchartered mountains, down the coast, and having to kill his way there.

    By tthe end of that last book he no longer feels anything when he kills. Its only after the kill is done that he feels remorse. or something.


    I still enjoy the books. But some parts do get annoying and lean towards the unbelievable. I still think the 50 lashes is well within the realm of reason.(again depending on the whip anyways... at the very least it wouldnt bother me anyways. In fantasy I tend to be more leniant with stuff like that)

    Sorry if this is horribly written. Its really late and felt the need to finally give my two cents on this.
     
  13. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    > Thanks for reminding me where that incident occured with Eragon killing that conscripted soldier. I for the life of me couldnt remember when that happened. I read someone elses view on it and it reminded me of something. For me its not so much that he killed the man but how he did it. If I remember correctly he seems to value the life of an ant more then his fellow human. Eragon knows plenty of ways to kill a man with magic. So why not instead of stranging the person, give him a merciful death? Also dislike that Arya only protested for a second and then... well was like "oh your right!' and such.

    It was a bumblebee, not an ant. And I remember how at the start of the book, it was feeling the life of a bumblebee that got him up.

    Or maybe the ant thing was in Eldest. I really can't remember. Sorry.

    > But it is possible, or so what I have gathered which isnt much, to survive 50 lashes. It would depend on the type of whip that was used. I also read that it was common to give someone 39 lashes. I forget the reasoning, I think it had to do with religion or something, but it was 1 less then what was 'lethal'

    One thing I will note is that a lot of it depends on how the person is whipped. When someone is given a lot of lashes- for example, fifty- then they are supposed to be varied; they can hit along the buttocks and legs, as well. The reason for this is, the more that you hit someone in the same spot, the more likely that the skin will break and cause serious infection. Hitting someone purely in the back, like what happened to Roran, is likely to kill them.

    I know for a fact that in Saudi Arabia, at least, people administering lashes like that are also supposed to hold a copy of the Quran under their arm, to curb the striking distance and the power they can put into each strike.

    > As for the 200 kills. Well 193 kills. Yeah that does seem a bit much. I mean in real life there are men who have done some incredible stuff. Stuff that most likely we would be calling BS if it were in a movie/book. However even with the funnel that forced the enemy soldiers to go in 1 on 1 the situation is just unbelievable. I dont mind him having a high killcount... but that high in a single battle like that? He'd be entirely to weak to lift his hammer. The adranaline may have kept him going for awhile but... yeah.

    It's beyond even that. I mean... did none of them so much as think to pick up a bow?

    > Well that wasnt just one book previous aswell. That was several months, and one hellish journey from Carvahall, through the mostly unchartered mountains, down the coast, and having to kill his way there.

    I distinctly remember him wishing that he had killed seven more, to make it an even two hundred. At that point, he's no longer feeling remorse- he's revelling in it.

    I can give you even more examples of things that are wrong with the series. For example, the entire background of the series being told to us, rather than any actual examples of evilness being shown to us (The main gripe everyone has is Galbatorix killing the Riders and raising taxes. He's raising taxes to fund the army to fight the Varden with... I won't debate the Rider thing here.); the really bad pacing in the third book (entire chapters of pretty much nothing); the horribleness of the elves (in the first two books, he dials it back- although does not stop it- in the third); the way Eragon treats Murtagh (and the narrative treatment of him in general); the awful prose; the infamous 'Mine is bigger than yours' (comparing bruises, including pulling down his pants and comparing a bruise on his upper thigh); the entire half-elf thing Eragon has going on; Blodgharm's weird whatever that is; the badness of his constructed language; and the like.

    I could go on for pages, seriously.
     
  14. Unit7

    Unit7 Contributor Contributor

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    I forget which animal/insect is where. But in general it seems Eragon had this thing were all life, even ants, were somehow very precious. But he is reluctant to kill animals and seems more then capable of killing humans without any real hesitation.

    As for the whipping again. Yeah it would definitely depend on where it was. I figure even with a whip that would cause the less damage it would start doing some serious damage after awhile in the same spots. I actually believe there was actual damage to one of his muscles. I dont remember it exactly but I stumbled across another conversation discussing his whipping.

    Also yeah where were the archers or someone who could throw a spear or anything really.

    As for whether or not he feels remorse. At that point your probably right. He has gone beyond that. But I dont think he is actually reveling in it. I always read that part as him being exhausted and just sort of half out of his mind. That or maybe at that point it might aswell be 200.

    I just never got the impression he was reveling in it.

    But then its been awhile.

    But yeah overall the books arnt the best. I still enjoy them.
     
  15. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    > I forget which animal/insect is where. But in general it seems Eragon had this thing were all life, even ants, were somehow very precious. But he is reluctant to kill animals and seems more then capable of killing humans without any real hesitation.

    That is one of the biggest problems everyone has with his character, honestly.

    > As for whether or not he feels remorse. At that point your probably right. He has gone beyond that. But I dont think he is actually reveling in it. I always read that part as him being exhausted and just sort of half out of his mind. That or maybe at that point it might aswell be 200.

    I do have a quote for you.

    > Then the soldiers were upon them, and for a span Roran heard nothing but the thud of swords bouncing off his shield and the clang of his hammer as he struck the soldiers' helms and the cries of the soldiers as they crumpled underneath his blows. The soldiers threw themselves against him with desperate strength, but they were no match for him or his men. When he vanquished the last of the attacking soldiers, Roran burst out laughing, exhilarated. What a joy it was to crush those who would harm his wife and his unborn child!

    Hm. I also pulled this quote out:

    > Roran acquired dozens of wounds as the day wore on. Many of his injuries were minor- a cut on the inside of his forearm, a broken finger, a cut across his ribs where a dagger had shorn through his mail- but others were not. From where he lay on the pile of bodies, a heavyset man smelling of onions and cheese fell against Roran and, with his dying breath, shoved the bolt of a crossbow into Roran's left shoulder, which thereafter prevented Roran from lifting his arm overhead.

    Although Nasuada apparently did send a magician to oversee the flogging to make sure he didn't die, so there's that.

    Also, it's continuously mentioned that the enemy soldiers did wield crossbows... :|

    > But yeah overall the books arnt the best. I still enjoy them.

    That's a perfectly valid position to take, and I respect that.
     
  16. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    OP, you said it yourself, the dude was fifteen when he wrote that. How can you not expect a child to be greatly inspired by the things he enjoys? In his mind (if he ever consciously thought about it) he was not "ripping them off," he was just writing what he enjoys.
     
  17. JPGriffin

    JPGriffin New Member

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    There's a difference between inspiration and plagiarism, though. I hate to bring in a pop culture example, but it's too relevant to pass up. Beyonce's hit music video "Single Ladies" was basically a copy of an older music video, one that was quite popular with its release. She basically copied the dance, changed a few moves, and called it her own. In response to accusations, she claimed she used the dance as "inspiration." A more modern example (which is how I learned of the later one... Wow, I hate celebrity news shows...) is quite literally a copy of an original, basically unknown dance routine- this time, Beyonce didn't even bother to change the outfit style. Her response to claims of plagiarism? "Inspiration."

    So do I believe that Paolini copied both books and movies, smashed them together, and let it lie? Not really. Of course one would be influenced by the world around them- to not be is completely unnatural, but consider yourself lucky if you aren't influenced so easily. I'd be surprised if this ever was seen as a form of plagiarism, but I'm not exactly the biggest fan of the series. The villains are too villainous- being evil for evil's sake isn't a good excuse. I get that Galbatorix is insane, but that's as much of an excuse for being evil as it is for murdering someone nowadays (Yes, you get an insight on my standings of such laws and claims). Shades especially rub me the wrong way- if they're spirits that take over a host's body, then why not relive their lives? Why must they be evil and murderous? But I digress. It's an original idea, in that there was never before a book of a boy and his dragon, out to save the world from his half-uncle and half-brother, with an elf and dwarf... On second thought, I see a lot of issues. Maybe not from Star Wars and Lord of the Rings exclusively, but a lot of recurring ideas. I'll have to rethink this.

    EDIT: Just as an example, I've posted a few times about a story idea- a man that creates chimeras, creatures with abilities and traits of other creatures. The idea is based off of one of Jean DuPrau's pieces, The Dark Lord of Derkholm. Of course, I made the character somewhat more insane, had him switch sides, and put his creatures into a far more practical perspective (The MC of "Darklord" literally created flying pigs specifically for the use of the phrase "When Pigs Fly"), and so in essence the story is altered enough to be seen as unique, but that tiny thread of the original work is still there. The issue I have with Paolini is that the web of a story he makes has very few original "threads" of his own. He's not always consistent, and there are a few more stories and such he could flush out with his own original work.
     
  18. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I am not a fan of the series at all, nor am I trying to defend him. I have only read the first book back when it first came out. So needless to say, it is far out of my memory. All my point was that you cannot expect a child to think like an adult.
     
  19. BrighterNexus

    BrighterNexus New Member

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    A book does need to stand on its' own merits though, regardless of the author.
     
  20. Fullmetal Xeno

    Fullmetal Xeno Protector of Literature Contributor

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    It's ok to be inspired. But not inspired to blandly rip-it-off cause he likes the genre. That proves to me that isn't a valid enough of an argument to defend him because he's 15. Im 14 and i realize that. Either im way off or incredibly wise, to notice something like this and stating what i stated. Inspired is influenced on a certain genre, and motivated to make thier own work. Not ripping it-off. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean there isn't any other type of story besides quest.
     
  21. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Yes, I agree, but once again, I am not arguing that. All I am saying is people getting hot and bothered over a child not acting like an adult is a little silly.
     
  22. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I agree that he took "homage" a little far. All I am saying is the kid wasn't a thirty year old when he wrote that, he was a fifteen. If anyone should be held accountable it is his editor/publisher, they should of caught it and told him better.

    P.S. I applaud you for being fourteen and already knowing not to make the same mistake.
     
  23. hyperchord24

    hyperchord24 Member

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    If an editor/publisher thinks a book is going to make money, they buy the book. End of story. As long as the author isn't infringing on copyright laws, it's fair game.
     
  24. hyperchord24

    hyperchord24 Member

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    If an editor/publisher thinks a book is going to make money, they buy the book. End of story. As long as the author isn't infringing on copyright laws, it's fair game.
     
  25. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    That is why I said "If anyone," I wasn't saying them letting it go by was bad. Just pointing out a fact. And actually, the fact I was pointing out is exactly what you said.
     

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