Why Ask??

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by EdFromNY, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I'm going to be nice, and out of respect to Ed I'm reopening this thread. Call it an apology to him. Remember though, the mods are watching.
     
  2. Thomas Kitchen

    Thomas Kitchen Proofreader in the Making Contributor

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    I have the feeling that you're being too nice and the uproar will begin again. Still, at least we know Lemex is a good guy. :p
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Haha. I think I'm getting exactly the same feeling as you. :) And thanks, I do try my best to serve you guys.
     
  4. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    wow - I was watching the reply count on this thread going up and up and wondering if the OP was really that popular or was I missing something - and I was. Glad I wasn't part of it though -sorry [MENTION=39909]Pheonix[/MENTION], couldn't send you a rep for "fun fun fun."
     
  5. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Why, thank you, Lemex. I appreciate the gesture.

    At the same time, I fully respected and agreed with your initial decision, not only because of the rancor but because I thought that just about everything of value that could have been said had already been said. My initial sense was that in order for someone to become a successful published writer, they have to first have confidence in their own ability, and asking for validation is an indication (nor proof, but an indication) that such confidence is lacking. Keep in mind that the first-time novelist faces huge challenges once the work is written - finding a willing agent, finding an editor, wrangling with the editor over content, just to name a few. It's not a course for the faint-hearted.

    In the course of this thread, it has been suggested (I forget by whom) that some people might be posting an idea for validation to see if it is a plausible project for the current marketplace, and might not be a sign of lack of confidence at all. Good point. But in that case, I can't see how anyone could take offense at Cogito's oft-posted response that "an idea means nothing; it's all in the writing" - a post that, if memory serves, is always accompanied by a link to some helpful instructional material. Do I always agree with Cog? No. But when it comes to writing issues, there are about a half dozen folks on this site whom I trust for accurate assistance and honest feedback, and Cog is one of them.

    I have long had a theory that it is possible for certain people to be allergic to certain other people - not in a physical sense but in an emotional one. I think this is true online as well. There are a handful of people on this forum whose posts, for whatever reason, drive me to distraction. I tend not to respond, or if I do, I keep it short and concise (not always a strength of mine - like now). I know I'm not going to change them, and they are not going to change me, so at that point, the only fruitful discussion is one that allows for a calm exchange of ideas and viewpoints. If that isn't going to happen - if it's just going to devolve into a snarky exchange of zingers, then what's the point? I recall one member not too long ago with whom I engaged in what I thought would be a fairly deep discussion on individual rights. I argue with facts, generally, and I reason from there. But this fellow, every time I presented him with an argument, would respond emotionally with something on a completely different topic. After a while, I just let it go. I mean, how do you engage a person like that? I think the person in question has since been banned.

    My point here is that I would always hope we look to conduct fruitful discussions. If it starts to devolve into a snark-fest, let it go. There are more important things, believe me.
     
  6. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    Except that by the time the story has been written, revised and put through the submission process, the trends and what is hot will have changed. The 'current marketplace' is really a blast from the past, it isn't what's being written this moment (well, some of it is, but it probably isn't wise trying too hard to be ahead of the trends). It was written months and months ago, probably even a year or more.
     
  7. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    That's pretty accurate, ED. Well said. And, if you don't mind my adding, I've noticed New Yorkers(not just NYC) and east coasters in general can be pretty "allergic" in many cases ;)

    At the end of the day, asking about an idea is just another fault among many. Last night I didn't write because I was lazy. You didn't know that, did you? Is that as bad as starting a thread asking for validation? Who knows? People slip. At best, I'd say commenting about people who ask for validation is really more complaining about people who ask for validation. It annoyed me originally, too, but now I just find it cute, like I find half of you people here ;)

    Hmm, having deja vu for some reason
     
  8. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    On a sidenote, the time I spent on one particularly holier-than-thou, back-stabby, dog-eat-dog forum made my skin thicker, and a writer needs a thick skin. If s/he's crushed and/or swayed by less than refined comments by people who've written the same comments a gazillion times before, the writer's probably got some growing and maturing to do.

    Not that I advocate being impolite or indignant or whathaveyou, but some mistreatment has done more good than harm to me. "Siberia teaches" as the old Finnish saying goes.
     
  9. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    Absolutely - for my first 4/5 months on this site I wouldn't have dreamt to put my work up for critique for fear of humiliation. While reading some comments to the work of others I have grown a thicker skin on other's behalves (if that makes sense) so sometimes harsh words can be beneficial.
     
  10. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Incredible quote.
     
  11. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    If years spent living in the gulag don't kill you first...

    We do now...expect a 'friendly' visit off some government agents in the next few days. :D
     
  12. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Heated arguments will break out, but I think it's best to put members you find toxic on Ignore. At least that saves everyone else being dragged into the mudslinging.

    As to the OP, I do find it annoying - along with any questions having to do with "Can I do this/that/the other thing?". Especially annoying when the title of the thread isn't indicative of that, so I open it up, start reading, and then discover it's just a time-waster. If it's the first time someone has done this, I generally just move on, figuring they will be told to go ahead and write it and thus see if they really "can". But when they keep coming back, asking for some sort of permission at nearly each and every step - then it's really difficult not to ask if they really want to be writers or just have someone hold their hand while they play at being one. Like that saying about some people want to be writers and some people want to write.

    I do note that there's a difference between "Can I" and asking for some brainstorming, which typically deals with a sticky point during the writing.
     
  13. Pheonix

    Pheonix A Singer of Space Operas and The Fourth Mod of RP Contributor

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    This. :D

    When a person wants to just bounce some idea's around or something like that, it feels different (and more productive) than the asking for validation threads. Sometimes those brainstorm threads are some of the most fun on here, and when you come out of it you feel like progress was made, instead of the other way around with the validation threads.

    It's hard sometimes to tell them apart, and sometimes what's presented as one is actually the other, but usually the tone is different enough that you can see the intentions of the OP.

    EDIT: [MENTION=2124]Lemex[/MENTION], thank you for reopening this thread, it's a good one if you can get past the bickering :D
    [MENTION=52161]erebh[/MENTION], fun fun fun :p
     
  14. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Absolutely true, which is why the advice of "it's all down to the writing" is so appropriate.
    [MENTION=8010]Phoenix[/MENTION] - I'm of two minds when it comes to brainstorming. On the one hand, I tend to believe that plot point issues are best resolved by the writer him-/herself, because (s)he will know best the goal of the story. OTOH, sometimes, you do get stuck and a fresh perspective can be helpful. And, brainstorming appeals to the kibitzer in all of us. I'm reminded of the scene in "Shakespeare in Love" where Marlowe is giving the Bard ideas for what will become "Romeo and Juliet".
     
  15. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    re: brainstorming

    I typically save these types of questions for my beta group. Sometimes I just can't decide which two or three alternative routes sounds the most plausible/workable, and have gotten myself all tangled up trying to decide. It usually takes only a few comments from them to slap me upside the head and get on the right track. It's basically having some help untangling the line so I can get back to fishing. :D
     
  16. Pheonix

    Pheonix A Singer of Space Operas and The Fourth Mod of RP Contributor

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    I agree for the most part with what you're saying Ed. It is better for a writer to develop those things on their own, but you can tell when someone is genuinely stuck. In those cases, I think that more discussion is okay because you never know which direction the person's imagination might take them once they've had a fresh perspective or idea introduced.
     
  17. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    All good points with which I agree wholeheartedly for the most part.

    It still leaves out my concerns: new and young forum members, and the fact one can be frank without being offensive.

    Are young people not welcome here if said backbone has not yet developed?
    Isn't there danger in stereotyping people from their first or first couple posts?
    If comments sound rude and condescending to some, even if they merely sound frank but true to others, does that fall under the purview of writing skills?
    Which leads to another question, should we critique writing issues we note but which are not asked to be critiqued?

    My thick skin and backbone put me at risk of breaking eggshells when I try to walk on them. When I have an 'allergy', my instinct is to look for the specific cause and I'm frank about what I find. What's the difference? We should have a backbone when it comes to critiques of our work. Definitely! Does that not apply when someone observes other characteristics within our written posts?

    I want people to tell me what specifically I could have said better. I don't want them to tell me not to say it in the first place because they are uncomfortable with discord. That doesn't mean mods shouldn't intervene with warnings and closing threads. There is a point where a battle can exceed all usefulness, and I couldn't agree more with Ed on this. I may take a discussion a step further than someone else might, but I do walk away, especially in those new political discussions in the lounge.

    Where I might not agree with Ed, is in backing down from the issue itself because someone doesn't like my point of view or beliefs. If it's just a discussion with one person, then sure, no point in going on, it's beyond highly unlikely that individual will change their beliefs. But what about the principle: Premature assumptions about young first time posters, and, the possibility the tone of some posts might cause new members to leave?

    Those are important principles to me, separate from any allergy or personal issues I might have with certain individuals. It's very hard for me to not speak up when a principle I believe is important is involved. Empathy for young forum members; empathy for people who are new to backbone development, or don't have experience or knowledge yet; evidence based beliefs; learning from other people's viewpoints; are all principles that are important to me.
     
  18. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    There is a report button if you think somebody is being nasty versus honest. That way things don't result in an on-forum battleground, which does no one any good.
     
  19. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I agree but not every kind of 'nasty' is equal. If someone posts, "that idea sucks", I don't see that as reportable. If they post, "you suck", it is.
     
  20. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I don't think I said anything about backing down. You can walk away from a discussion without backing down (a line from the film "Twelve Angry Men" occurs to me: "Do you believe this guy? I mean, it's like talkin' into a dead phone!"). In fact, I think that people sometimes prolong online arguments because they are afraid of the perception that they have backed down. But there really is nothing wrong (and much to be said for) that wonderful phrase, "Let's agree to disagree."

    It's a risk, I'll admit. Which is why I hope that this discussion will result in all of us being at least somewhat mindful of tone when we post. At the same time, Ginger, I have to tell you that there are some things that you have cited as harsh that I, frankly, did not find to be so. Abrupt, maybe, but not harsh. But even granting the point that someone else might find them to be so, we are talking about people who want to be writers, who want to put their work out for the public to judge. Believe me, they will hear much harsher things out in the world of would-be published writers than anything I've seen posted here. I think most of us can keep the criticism reasonable.

    Of course. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
     
  21. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I agree with this as well. It's not the kind of backing down I'm talking about, and I quit caring about the, "you walked away, that means you were wrong" insult a long while back. My usual criteria for leaving a debate: it's no longer productive, it's taking up more time than I care to invest, or everything has been said and the arguments are simply recycling.

    When one is talking only to an individual, 'no longer productive' is reached much sooner than when the debate involves more people and broader issues.



    Yes! :)



    I said as much, "If comments sound rude and condescending to some, even if they merely sound frank but true to others,...". The problem is not how I perceive the posts, it's trying to walk in the shoes of a young or new writer, how would they perceive them?

    I agree, telling it like it is (tough love, someone said) has an important place in education. I teach (along with consulting and nursing/medical practice). I don't have a formal teaching degree but I've had extensive courses in the field, read lots of material, and taken a particular interest in the research. Since I teach adults, it's particularly important I don't assume imparting knowledge means said knowledge will be absorbed. More often than not, it will bounce off all that stuff which already exists in that student's brain.

    Research in education suggests we need to broaden our view of the problem. You won't be successful if you identify every problem as a knowledge deficit.

    Let me use a different example. I was trying to decrease the mistakes staff were making when following up on needle sticks. The right people weren't notified, exposed employees got wrong advice, source patients were being discharged before their blood was drawn for testing and so on. I collected data on the errors, addressed them with department supervisors, developed educational material for the staff. Six months after the interventions I collected the data again. Nothing changed!

    Talking to one of the hospital's educators, her advice was one of those eureka moments for me. The problem was not a knowledge deficit, it was a performance deficit. It needed a different set of interventions than just imparting knowledge. In that case ,the barrier was staff didn't perceive the hazard would ever affect them, so learning the procedure to follow didn't stay in the collective department memory very long. With that identified as the problem, we developed simple procedure cards and put them in dozens of places where people could find them when the hazard did happen to them. And it worked.


    The point is, "telling people truths" only addresses the knowledge deficit. Everything is not a performance deficit either. Barriers to communication include many things, including how one words a comment. If one cares enough to answer a post, or critique a piece, shouldn't one also care if the reply is effective? And in this case, that means thinking about the person asking the question beyond a stereotype.
     
  22. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Bear in mind that much of the disagreement concerned people who were asking the same things over and over - ie, they either weren't paying attention or chose to ignore the advice given. That can tax the patience of a saint, let alone mere mortals. But people also have to learn that not everything is going to be puppies and kittens - and if someone is old enough to join a forum for writing, I would assume that they have already been exposed to that fact.

    I don't always care for the way people respond to questions here or on other forums. But unless someone is calling another an idiot or being otherwise deliberately nasty, I don't get uptight about it. The same person who gives a less than nice answer one time will give an uber-helpful response the next. And again, if there appears to be a pattern of nastiness, I either report it or PM the mods/owner. They are the ones who should deal with this stuff, not other members - and then it happens off the forum so the rest of us can continue without being dragged into these messes.
     
  23. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Good points, Ginger. But I think are different kinds of teaching. On this site is much less actual teaching and much more like peer coaching. We're less like a classroom and more like a study group (ever see the film "The Paper Chase"?).

    An example from just this Sunday (it will make more sense if you know baseball, but will make the point even if you don't). Mets are playing the Phillies. Juan Lagares is up and hits a routine fly ball to center field. Ben Revere, the Phillies center fielder, makes the catch, but instead of securing the ball and then pulling it out of the mitt with his free hand, he turns the mitt over to plop it into his hand. Only he misses, drops the ball, and Lagares ends up on third base. The Mets score three runs and go on to win the game 8-0. When Revere returns to the Phillies dugout at the end of the inning, no one says a word to him. No one says, "Hey, bro, tough break" or "They should have called it an out". Silence. My wife, a schoolteacher, turns to me and says, "I don't agree with that. That's not the way to make the point." I told her that, with a child in a classroom, I would agree. But from peers in a dugout, it was completely appropriate.
     
  24. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    This was not the case in the examples I cited. A person with 1 or 2 posts ever cannot have asked the question, "will this work for a plot", over and over
     
  25. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Interesting example, I thought you were going with, they should have criticized his mistake and you went with, the call was bad. :p

    But you said just what I've been saying, you would approach a child differently than an adult. A lot of our forum members are young teens.
     

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