World-building and avoiding triggers

There's no need to be cagey about the specifics - if you're worried about someone stealing your ideas, it's just not something that happens here. And the mods look VERY unfavourably on plagiarism.

But it's worth remembering that most story and plots have been done ad infinitum, in different ways and under different guises.

I will say one thing - there were few black people in LotR because it's a fantasy world. It doesn't have to have black people. A fantasy world doesn't have to have white people if the author doesn't want it to. I could write a story about a dark elf rights movement in my world being paid off with lots of money. That's not being disrespectful to BLM, as long as that's not my intent. It's fantasy. The lesbians in your world don't have to act like the lesbians of the real world (as long as you can make it believable). Of course, if you want them to, that's fine too, it's your story.

All I'm saying is that don't get hung up on reflecting real-world issues in your fiction.

 

That's true. I suppose the people in a fantasy world don't even have to act like we do in ours. obviously I don't intend to misrepresent, but the worlds I dream of are vastly different, and as such should show and explore those differences.
and thanks for reassuring me, telling me not to worry.
Thank you

 

Contemporary politics detract from the flavor and immersion of fictional worlds.

Your people can use magic to reproduce? How does that affect the way that sex is viewed in the cultures that practice it? It's the equivalent of a test tube vat-baby and now the traditional interactions of males and females are being challenged. There could be tribes of entirely same-sex populations because you don't need the other to make babies. Perhaps one sex finds the other obsolete now. A group could be behind subverting the traditional methods of reproduction because they have a monopoly over magic reproduction.

 

(emphasis added)
No.
No, it's not just about intent. If I recreated Mein Kampf or Birth of a Nation completely accidentally intending it to be a non-offensive work, it would still be an offensive work. It's quite easy for people to just accidentally pick up or replicate prejudicial depictions of some group without intending to be prejudiced at all, it's easy even for someone who actually does have prejudice tainting their intentions to not recognise it as such.
When the audience is viewing your work, they will not have the author there to explain that it's just a fantasy and they didn't mean anything by it, and even if they did that wouldn't necessarily make it okay. Your work will read a certain way including how it comments on real-world issues, and it doesn't matter whether it's fantasy because it will always, always be compared. And frankly, why would you want your fantasy not to comment on the real world?
Fantasy is not for stories that have nothing to do with the real world, it's for stories that are like the real world usually in many ways (civilisation, humans, horses, language, biological life, oceans and continents, gravity, etc.) but for a number of key differences, and those differences are often directly inspired by the real world too. Your average fantasy world with magic and dragons has everything to do with the real world, including the magic and dragons. It's not just a mistake to not notice the sheer amount of real-world elements in fantasy, it's a mistake to think those real-world elements aren't there because they reflect on the real world. The popularity of magic & dragons is not just because people like the concepts, but also because they had cultural significance long before they were in modern fantasy. The same thing is true for the way modern sci-fi still latches onto cold war era alien folklore.
That doesn't mean things can't be different. Obviously, things can be different. But you have to be conscious of how those differences will read and how they affect the presentation of real-world elements in your story. You can lean more or less into making commentary, and whether or not the commentary will be generic (e.g. don't kill people, working together makes you stronger) or more provocative, but you can't simply decide what commentary you want to make regardless of the details of the story. If you want to have a dark elf rights movement being paid off, you have to ask whether the way you are going to write that will read as a negative commentary on BLM, or on civil rights movements in general. And you should ask why exactly you are writing it this way and just what your intent actually is. Because a dark elf rights movement is going to say things about the real world whether you like it or not, and it will be all the better for your work if you write it consciously to make the commentary good and interesting.


So, to the questions in the OP. About depicting prejudice in the world, I think it is perfectly acceptable to have a fantasy world without any prejudice around race or sexuality. I would note it can be important to acknowledge that the world's history has been defined by a history of prejudice and given the nature of most fantasy worlds it can serve as a problematic idealization of a 'simpler time' that didn't exist. But then, on the other hand, it can be nice to escape these issues, especially given they demand some serious attention, and fantasy writers have a bit of a history of making problematic race allegories that actually make things worse. I think if you want to not include it in your story you should, and the only major caveat is that I don't think you should at any point draw attention to its exclusion, as this would probably read as kind of insulting. You should also be careful that you don't accidentally put it into your story in any way.
On the issue of the baby, ideally, you should try to get a number of perspectives from lesbian people who both do and do not want children. The key thing is how much this plot point will read as a commentary on lesbian relationships. @Fervidor makes a good point about 'bear favor' here with their evil baby hypothetical. I would err with something like this away from commenting on the group at large, as that seems to be the direction you want to go and its the safer choice, so I would make sure to focus on the two characters personal journies. That would help avoid, for instance, the story not sufficiently exploring the two characters thoughts and motivations toward parenthood, which could read as though it is merely taken for granted that lesbian couples want children. Just don't spend to much time on it, or it could make it out to be too big a deal.

 

That is because Tolkien was writing European mythology - his goal was specifically to write mythology for Britain. And in Middle Ages, most frequent contact was through war. Which meant that, since Lord of the Rings were about war, only contact "Europeans" would have with "non-Europeans" would have been through war - for example, Tolkien had equivalent of basically Gothic/Hunnic/Mongol invasions with Wainriders. I don't really see racism there. Or in Elves - they were based on Celtic mythology (with massive influences of Germanic one), of course they will be white.

Same as above. Martin is basically writing British History Redux. In fact, it is precisely his attempts to shove in / give attention to non-white people which can be considered racist - not because Martin himself is racist, but because he simply doesn't / cannot give Essos attention (in terms of research, primarily) which he gives Westeros. The result of that is that his non-white cultures end up being a joke, a carricature, of what they historically were. Although to be fair, Westeros too is a carricature of medieval European society, it is simply nowhere as obviously so as Essos. And both of these things kinda drive me mad, especially when I hear someone saying "ASoIaF is realistic". No, it isn't. Not by a long shot, and especially not compared to Lord of the Rings. It is cynical, but cynicism =/= realism.

 

I think you've got a great idea. Start writing it. I don't think you have as much to worry about as you think.

 

All literature says something about the world. And words are very powerful things.

 

The author's view of the world, perhaps.

 

Well, yes, exactly.
The work is saying something about the world and the author is the one that created the work so it reflects the author's view of the world. It's your responsibility as an author to reflect on the world properly, and if you want to be a particularly good author, you should have some interesting perspectives to weave into your storytelling.

 

I kind of like this way of thinking. While I don't really vibe with some of it, I can get behind the sentiment. I think you would be able to just honestly ask around to get a general feel for how most will react to that sort of thing.

Another thing to remember is that not everyone will agree. Some lesbian couples will really like the idea of having a biological child without needing a surrogate, while others will be... less than receptive. I think that you should go for it, and that you're idea is fine as it is, but I'm not the demographic you're worried about.

 

I would agree with the first one, though not so much with the second. Fantasy obviously isn't obligated to be "historically accurate", meaning us fantasy writers can't really use that to excuse our decisions: When working with a fantasy setting we ourselves designed from the ground up, we are directly responsible for anything we put into that story as we did so by choice rather than necessity.

Oh, absolutely. The majority of the human population will presumably still be heterosexuals who'd prefer to procreate the regular way. Not like gay people having magic babies is going to affect them much.

Eh, I think that's something those authors should be asking themselves, really. I don't think I have much right to judge them about that, especially since I don't have much insight into what sort of markets and demographics they're writing for.

The fact that I'm bothered by my tendency to almost exclusively dream up white people to serve as heroes in my stories is because I consider it a personal flaw: It's something I don't really like about myself and would like to remedy.

Because, assuming I ever manage to complete a book and get published and become some sort of big-shot fantasy author, it's fair to assume I'll have quite a few none-white readers who would probably appreciate a bit of positive representation. You know, allowing them dream that they too could be awesome heroes who go on rad adventures and save the world from evil - giving them role models to look up to and emulate - because that's sorta the point of fantasy.

And, well, I genuinely think that would be a nice thing. As in, I think it's nice whenever I come across stories that do this, and it's something I want to emulate even if it doesn't feel completely natural to me, on account of decades of cultural conditioning.

I mentioned coding earlier. Basically what really matter in the end is how the text is going to end up being read, regardless of my intentions. Yes, I could decide that all my good guys should be strictly blonde, blue-eyed, heterosexual white folk and then simply invent a reason for why this makes perfect sense within the context of the story. But if I'm asked to justify that later, answers like "I just felt like it" or "It's what feels natural to me" or "It's all made up, so it doesn't matter" aren't going to cut it, even if that happens to be the honest truth in my case.

That fact remains that I would merely have perpetuated a badly outdated and unproductive notion - that the role of Important Character Who Actually Matters is reserved for white heteronormatives, at least implicitly - just because I couldn't be bothered to get out of my comfort zone and write, say, a couple of black characters for once.

For the record, this all sounds pretty damn cool, actually.

 

But that doesn't mean that you can ignore logic. For example: if you have medieval modes of transportation, that means medieval level of globalization, which also means medieval level of contact between different peoples - which means no multiculturalism, unless you are talking big ports. These things are connected, and I can never agree with forcing something that doesn't make sense, no matter the reasoning. Same way as you cannot have a city in the middle of the steppe (unless you are writing about the Mongols). So if you are going to change something, you have to truly understand what you are changing, what is necessary to cause the change, and what consequences it will have. Or you will have a situation where your world / society feels off. Unconnected.

Agreed.

 

"I can't write about an ethnicity If I don't speak to people from different ethnic backgrounds."

Ok, pause. If you speak to people on Earth about their experience living as a member of their ethnicity, they will give you their perspective on living as a member of that ethnicity on Earth. But your world's premises mean it will be radically different from our Earth. You've got a massive disconnect in themes between the world you are trying to build and the source material you are using to build it up.

According to your premises, you should forget about ethnicity altogether in the context of your novel because the only thing a black man in your world will have with a black man in our world is skin color.

What you should do is just have people from different ethnic backgrounds as sensitivity readers.

 

Sure but I am trying to make it relatable to people from 'Earth' and eventually try to sell the book to people from 'Earth'. It can't just be 100% derived.

It is more context than premises. People are reconnecting with lost worlds and kingdoms on their journey. I haven't said that these places bear no resemblance to our world whatsoever.
I still want to mirror and construct metaphors for the world that I live in and the world I made up.
Even if it was completely derived I could write a story about the differences between Blue squares and Red squares that could have racist undertones
(We all know Blue squares are rubbish anyway)

that is kind of why I am asking the question. when is a good time to consider that? Before or after your first draft? beta reading process?
As I said, I am in the worldbuilding stage. I am wondering at what point to throw the idea around to see what people think. Collect a list of questions that people ask and answer them in some way when considering them in my writing.

The Lesbian baby side plot is a side plot. But most of the thread already has become racially charged when first being used as an example for representation. Yet there are lots of other themes I want to tackle in this world, there are religious, political, and societal themes too, but they haven't even been touched on here. That is a different controversy for another time.

 

Tried to break that market, but there was not much atmosphere.

 

It's been a while since there was a Buzz on the moon

 

Any book sales on the moon will crater quickly.

 

Simple advice here ...

Write your story. Don’t worry about how it may or may not be perceived (someone somewhere will wilfully look for something to be offended by and make a lot of noise - so what).

Keep asking yourself these questions though as it is important to understand the current sociopolitical climate compared to past times.

One reason I have become interested in all manner of obscure subjects and cultural traditions is because I wanted to create a world. Keep doing what you’re doing, but please don’t let others’ opinions of what they believe your motives are effect your artistic integrity.

Note: Alan Moore is a good example of someone who deals with controversial topics with a sense of inner self-respect rather than attempting to ‘not be offensive’ or steer clear of what is - if we’re honest - deeply intriguing in human nature (our willingness to be shaped by ‘stories’ for better and/or worse).

 

I don't really have anything to add to the discussion, except this 12th century irish story about a lesbian pregnancy (no magic involved in the actual pregnancy but a guy gets liberated from a demonic pact and sort of fall from the sky because the king is so wise)


(the whole thread is worth reading)

 

Wow thanks!
What a find

 

Well, I disagree but it's a matter of opinion.

I would question how one could recreate Mein Kampf without it intending to be offensive.

 

I don't really consider it to be up to opinion, to be honest. I think this is a matter of some fairly unshakeable principles. The work will always stand on its own.
I think you are right that we would question the intent based on the work (I think you may be underestimating people's capacity for denial still, but), and I'd say this is all the more reason why the work is what matters. Someone can always say their intent is pure, but actions speak louder than words. Or...words written printed on paper speak louder than...other words. You know what I mean.

 

While I'm a bit late to the party here, I just wanted to steer completely away from the "specifics" and strike at the heart of the issue that badgerjelly perfectly states; rather than getting yourself caught up on what others will think, write from the heart and innermost soul. Attempting to be "inclusive" is a great goal, however, what makes a story truly cohesive and that reads genuinely, is to write from the heart. Strip away the labels and attempts to appease everyone, because no matter what, there will be those who are or aren't pleased by a piece of writing.

The truest writing, in my experience, has always been writing from experience or from the heart. If you feel that because of your life experiences, you aren't "qualified" to write on a particular subject or viewpoint, that's just fine! Don't force it; write the kind of story that only you can write, and let the genesis come from your tastes and interests, even if that may not interest some others. Regardless of what you write, you will reach those your writing is meant to reach. If you try to please everyone else, you'll only end up forgetting to please yourself; and if you do that, chances are you'll miss out on the best parts of the writing process.

Even more than "why not" or "should I," the most important question any writer needs to ask themselves is simply:

Why do I write?

The answer to that question will help clear up a lot; do you write for your enjoyment? Do you write to make money? Do you write simply because you feel you can't sleep if you don't? Do you write to come to a deeper understanding of yourself? There are as many answers to this as there are writers in the world. Consider meditating on this question when you're having doubts as to an aspect of your story. If it suits your purpose or not may well help you decide whether a particular idea is worth spending your writerly energy on, or if it something that will only drain you and distracting you from achieving even more.

 

Oh, boy. THIS! ^

Just write your story without overthinking how it's going to be perceived, as @badgerjelly said. Put your heart and soul into it. If your heart and soul need to be worked on—to get rid of prejudices or biases you don't want to keep—this will emerge as you write.

Mana_Kawena is right. No matter what you write, somebody isn't going to like it. I think you must accept this, if you want to be a writer in the real world. Name me one single book or one single author who is universally loved. You can't. So don't try to be that author. Instead, try to be an author who is like no other author. The people who do love your writing will REALLY love it, because it will be so unique, and will matter to them. It will be unique, because YOU are unique. If you put your fearless self into your story, you will create a unique story.

Something @Homer Potvin said earlier in this thread makes sense to me. Our own world is far FAR from perfect. Why assume you can create a Fantasy one that is?

I believe that prejudice against 'the other' —whoever that other may be—is pretty ingrained in humanity AND in non-human sentient life here on Earth. (Ever watched squirrels fighting each other for nuts, even when nuts are plentiful, or garden birds fighting to keep their territory?) It comes from the instinctive realisation that if I want me and mine to thrive, I'll need to do it while standing on the ground and using the resources some other entity wants and needs. So it's eat or be eaten. Kill or be killed. Steal or be stolen from. Remove or be overwhelmed. Push back, or be pushed out. The fear of being 'pushed out' of what you consider to be 'your place,' by an entity you perceive as different from yourself, is probably pretty universal—even though it works against itself as well. (Wars, hatred, fear, constant turmoil, etc—all those things that hold back a pleasant and productive life.) And by 'universal,' I mean just that. The Universe. So you could work WITH that principle, instead of trying to eradicate it from your Fantasy world.

I'd say the biggest obstacle to becoming a writer is getting hamstrung by worry that you might make a mistake. Of course you will make mistakes—and I don't mean just grammatical ones. But they can all be corrected ...IF you actually have something there to work on in the first place. Trying to correct all possible mistakes before you even start will keep you pinned in Wannabe Land forever. You obviously have a good heart, @LostArtist . That will be obvious to your readers. So get started and keep going. You'll get there.