Oh, I have no objection to using bad grammar to help voice a character or narrator. It's when it's NOT done with intention that 'clarity' vanishes. You can call it 'clarity,' and maybe that helps. However, I challenge most writers to achieve clarity without a basic understanding of grammar, spelling and punctuation. I'm not saying it can't be done. Never say never. But I've never seen it done. I'd be interested in seeing examples of a notable book that is poorly-written technically, BY AN AUTHOR WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE RULES OF PUNCTUATION, CAN'T SPELL OR STRING SENTENCES TOGETHER. Of course if the 'bad' writing is done deliberately to serve the story, that is fine. The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner is an example where this device 'works'—for some folks anyway. But the key word here is 'deliberately.' Faulkner was a fine writer who understood all the rules he deliberately chose to break in this novel. To my knowledge this is the only one of his novels he wrote this way. (And I don't remember bad spelling either, only a very disconnected stream of consciousness, and references to things and people which weren't immediately recognisable to the reader.) Another book I LOVE which works this way is the fabulous Riddley Walker, by Russell Hoban. However, again, this was masterfully done, by an author who knows his stuff. (And even so, many people found this book nearly impenetrable.) Hair-splitting aside, I'm sure you all have picked up amateur writing that you simply can't plow through because the grammar, spelling and punctuation is so bad you can't follow the story, have no idea who is saying what to whom, and don't know what half the words mean because they are so badly spelled you can't even look them up in a dictionary. These are the people I don't critique. What's the point? Writing is not their 'thing.' Sorry.
Well, yeah. I also said nobody cares AS LONG AS the writing is clear and engaging. If it's not clear (probably because of bad technical skills) then people DO care. It's just that some people get too anal about technical skills and won't give anything a chance if those are not knuckled down to perfection. And that's as blind as unskilled writers typing away randomly. That all said, Hubert Selby was clearly an unskilled writer, by his own admission, but what he wrote about was so engaging and shocking that people went down that road willingly.
Okay, I'll give you Selby. His writing is interesting. He did what he did deliberately, and certainly used what he did know to good effect, and he did it well. It's not my favourite kind of writing, but I can see what he was doing and can applaud him for doing it. His voice is authentic, and it does come across that way. I do maintain he is an exception, though.
And yeah, I'll concede you generally need to know how to write, but what I'm saying is, between the two elements of writing that are most important, technical and creative skill, creative skill almost always wins out. And it's not black and white. It's not that someone has NO technical skill but can write a good book. That's insane. But if they have flaws and can't quite master perfect grammar, nobody will care about that if the story as a whole is an incredible read.
I went to one writer's group just once. 3 people including myself showed up. One of the girls said she hasn't written anything in ages, the guy said he has writer's block, and another woman who did write stuff talked about how much her novel means to her, rather than share what it is she's actually written. I asked her, she didn't seem to want to say. The others had nothing to say. All critique had already been written down and passed back to the writers and nobody wanted to ask any questions or discuss the writing nor the feedback on it. I talked about my book eventually, because frankly, the meeting was dying in stale silence. When I got home, I found a comment on the FB page of our group from my friend saying, "If anyone can think of things they'd like more of in the group or how to improve, please comment!" Upon which, the girl who didn't write and the woman who did write but didn't want to share because it's far too personal, both saying "I didn't realise this group was so bitchy and if we're gonna talk about people behind their backs, then I don't want to be part of the group." And that I hogged the group's time with my own work when nobody wanted to speak. Needless to say, I never went back. It's kinda my "f*ck you" to them. But the guy and my friend I'm still in touch with That was the first writing group I ever joined, first session ever, and my last. I sorta don't really think anything useful will come out of this kinda group. @Aurin - so did things improve in your group?
Boy, @Mckk, after reading that I REALLY feel lucky with my group. Mind you, a strange person shuffled in last month, carrying a sackful of half-peeled bananas and used paper handkerchiefs and announced that she had just decided to start writing poetry because her best friend's dog had just died, and she needed something to take her mind off the sad event. Fortunately, she hadn't written any yet. We were all polite, of course, but...holy shit, I hope she doesn't come back!!!! We'll find out tomorrow. Yikes.
I think the reasoning for that is ignorance and arrogance on their part. If they go in believing they're an amazing writer with no faults then what will they learn? If they're are not willing to accept the errors the whole group to them is pointless. I believe some go just to feel "superior". I have nothing against these types of groups, but all critiques there should be taken with a pinch of salt, or sugar in some cases. As everyone is in the same boat...learning so knowledge is unstable. I know I am still learning and don't feel i am in the position to correct words or sentences, i am dyslexic so takes me a while anyway. I would rather a creative course with a qualified tutor, and pay knowing there is a pool of knowledge at the helm. And unfortunately I can see and have seen people start writing because it is something anyone can do....as in get computer and type. Any one can sculpture but not everyone will take a block of stone and make a work of art. And i find that some of these people seem to use it as an esteem builder or add self worth (which is great if you are determined to learn and accept that you will be wrong sometimes.) as we can all agree being a writer can be a prestigious title, one step down from author after all in a sense. And this can attract anyone. But sometimes it attracts people who don't love writing but love being called a writer. What i love about this forum is that people here want to and love to write. I don't think their are many people here who actively call themselves writers. So at least you know why I don't critique lol.
Oh, gosh. I had to write an essay for school, and our little groups of four or five had to critique each other's writing and give scores (+, ✓, -) in certain categories. I got mostly + grades with helpful critiques from everyone except this one girl, who gave me average ratings (✓). When I asked her for reasons why, she shrugged and told me she didn't know. The whole point was to improve by listening to the criticism, and I had no idea how I was supposed to turn those average ratings into excellent ratings when she refused to justify why I received the grade I did. Either way, I ended up with a 52 out of 50 on that essay, so I was fine in the end.
Hello, I also have a problem writers. Write a book if I knew what, it was not an insurmountable problem. The book is written. She woke up a bit of attention. But she is not written in English. I did it for himself translated into English, but as you can read here, my English is not good for its publication. The theme could it be possible for someone interesting for a possible collaboration, who knows? It is the concealment discovery of a secret listening underwater. They are facts treated as fiction. It's about America from 1945 to 2012. I found no man that would know about this discovery, so I wrote about it. Who wants to read a sample "imperfect" translation and the need to consult me, so be it writes.
Wow. Are you sure you didn't make this character up? She's just dying to be put into a story. I'll take her if you don't want her.
Well, she didn't turn up at our last meeting ...so maybe, just maybe... Feel free to nab her as a character, if you want. She most certainly is one. I don't think she's 'inspired' any of us, yet, though. And here is where it gets REALLY good. My writers' group did NOT discuss her at all. Somebody mentioned that she hadn't come back, and that's it. Nobody took the opportunity to make fun of her behind her back (except me, of course, here on the forum, bad bad...) If she had returned and attempted to hijack the meeting again with her personal stories of woe, our chairman would have had to deal with the situation. However, he's a really great guy (and very funny writer) and certainly would have been as kind to her as possible, while doing this. I have fallen in with a truly supportive group of people, and feel very lucky.
