Would this somehow send out the wrong message?

Because mentally ill people don't read?

 

Okay, so I feel like I'm stuck. Is it possible that it'll go either way, or is this something I have to sit back and decide during revision? I feel like I could argue for either side at this point, YA and adult fiction. I'm not biased to it being adult fiction, but I've just always felt that it was YA fiction. Is it possible that it's a sort of hybrid novel?

 

No they read a lot and frequent forums.

 

What if it looks like a great death where he gets famous, but then it turns out that the poem that becomes famous is the one he hated. He threw it in the trash, mom dug it out, sent it to a publisher. No one gets it. Everyone thinks he meant the opposite of what he did...

but he's dead so he can't defend himself.

 

Yes, those exist. They're usually called crossovers. You can't pitch it that way, however; it's a publisher's decision on how to market it. In a query letter, you have to pick a side. Something like "YA with crossover potential" or "adult literary fiction with crossover potential."

I think you're too early in the process to be forcing those kinds of decisions, though. It's something to think about, but I'm assuming querying is a ways off if you just finished the first draft. I think your first step should be, like I said, to get beta readers who know the YA market well. Take everything people (including me) say with a grain of salt unless they've read the actual book.

 

OP, I think it's safe to say that you should put a pin on this topic until you've written out the story. In your shoes, I would weigh both options during revision, and if you still have questions, return to the forum and ask.

 

^^^This. Right there. I speak from the experience of someone who, when I was 20, was making a plan to not be on the planet anymore. I had short checklist of tasks to complete (things like obtaining the item I was going to use, transportation to the place because I didn't want my sister to be the one to find me, etc.) and I got far down the list before I got help.

I wouldn't say a book, or an item in the media gave me the idea, or "convinced" or "puppeteered" me as @Homer Potvin put it, but I was in a broken enough state where I was pretty damn suggestible. I wouldn't say I thought what I was planning sounded glamorous, but in my deep feeling of hopelessness it was romanticized in my brain as being a lot better than my status quo at the time.

@Homer Potvin , you said, "you have to be some kind of special stupid to be puppeteered into suicide by a book. Or convinced to do anything. Get a clue, people. And a grip." I'll ignore that and say this: for me, my decision to do what I was planning was not one decision. Or two. It was a series of tiny little nudges and pecks that, mixed with my own shit, piled up into a big, cumulative mess that led to my making a really bad plan. Homes, there is no logic when someone feels that broken and desperate. By the time someone gets to that point, logic went out the window a long time ago.

As a creative person, I get it. I don't want to pander or think about the masses, and I want to be free to write whatever I please, uncensored and without worrying about the reactions of people I don't even know. But, I've also been that broken suggestible person. I think potential consequences are at least worth thinking about rather than just rejecting outright. We think about other ways the masses may react to our work (marketability, genre, format, where to buy, pricing). Why not this?

To show you how logic completely goes out the window when you're planning not to be on the planet anymore...wanna know what stopped me? I got hung up on one item on the list that seemed completely unsolvable, and the thought of an alternative never occurred to me, because, no logic: I couldn't afford cab fare to the location. I sought help the next morning.

(punctuation edit)

 

*applause* Very well said.

 

Honestly, I feel your pain a bit. I posted something about my touchy story idea because there are a few points where people can become uncomfortable. However, my problem was not as intricate as your issue, as the things I want to include have been done and I have many more things to draw help from. I think... it would be way easier if you wrote the story or at least drafted a bit of it and shared so people can share input on something that exists outside of an idea or half-complete phase. From the premise and some of the plot points in my novel, there are a lot of ways it can be done terribly wrong, but there are also a lot of ways to do it right. It all falls to that ability in my opinion. Don't trash an idea just because you do not think you can do it. Just do it and judge the actual product. Maybe ask for input before you do full revision so you can have alternative ideas and perspectives. Never abandon something if it's what you really want to create.

 

But in this conversation, it's not just art. We're using marketing labels YA", "Adult Fiction") and terms like "the masses" because the intention is to sell it. If it were just art, none of that would matter, none of us would be here, and this conversation wouldn't happen. We're talking about commerce as well.

We're essentially talking about how to best manipulate an agent into taking the book, manipulate a publisher into giving money for it, and manipulate a consumer into buying and reading it, by placing a book in the right box. That's the endgame here, for any of us who want to sell a book: manipulating entities and people into doing what we want.

So now, that we're doing that, we can't just suddenly fall back to, "Oh, it's art, so we can do whatever."

Which reminds me...just how does one sell a book where the MC offs himself? What blurb does one write to make that attractive? What marketing campaign does one use? What tie ins? And is the author prepared to handle the social media aspects? Answer tough questions journalists will ask in interviews if the book is successful?

We think carefully about queries. That's not art. Or does it become art again when things get uncomfortable?

People are still reading Romeo and Juliet, but Mr. S. never had to deal with modern book marketing. It ain't the same thing at all.

 

This is where I'd argue that it's for adults. It's not meant for 12 yr olds, or even 13 yr olds. I never intended for it to be.
But it is meant for 16-17-18 yr olds. I came up with the original idea of this book at 16. I wouldn't write a book where the MC is a teen and not want teens of the same age to read it. That makes no sense.
Murky waters, indeed.

 

Not offended. Probably not.

To be clear, I'm not advocating or suggesting removing anything. I'm just saying that as writers we need to think about the consequences of what we're doing (which the OP obviously is) and think about how and why we're doing it, and yes, in some cases, consider whether or not we can do it in a better way. But most importantly, we need to understand that we're not writing in a vacuum. Because once it's out there, especially now that the internet is a factor, we can't put the genie back in the bottle.

And I'm saying all this because it's as important to consider the consequences for us, the writers, as it is for them, the readers. I'm talking about our own peace of mind / state of mind / self-protection just as much as I am the reader's. How many writers here in the Forum, have blatantly said they were introverts? How's that going to go if something they write blows up in controversy because they hadn't thought it through before putting it out there?

Yeah, it's exactly those authors that "would do anything to be asked tough questions" who worry me the most. A fame whore is a fame whore, whether in a brightly lit Hollywood studio or a cozy writer's den. The only difference is, the fame whore in Hollywood has probably seen how the game goes or at least has had media training to anticipate the questions. A fame whore who doesn't know how to play the game is a danger to themselves and to others, possibly even their families. (This is the age of stalking, doxing, and issuing death threats when people don't like what someone says, after all. ETA: And having experienced it for something I wrote, it is not fun.)

I'm just saying, we need to think it through, rather than putting blinders on, because God knows we certainly think through the minutia of everything else (comma placement, word count, queries, genre, format, et al). The OP clearly was wanting to think it through, and I applaud them for that. This shit ain't easy, and it involves a lot of self-reflection, whether before it's put out there, or after the consequences get hurled straight at us. Kudos to the OP for asking.

 

Hold up, who said "remove"? Who's advocating not talking about the subject of suicide at all?

I can and do write about a lot of nasty subjects, but there are some viewpoints I feel I need to be careful with promoting in my stories--and by "promote", I mean put them forward without questioning them or highlighting the flaws in those arguments. Because those views exist in the real world, and they harm real people.

That puts a responsibility on me to try and avoid sending messages like "suicide fixes your problems" without having them be questioned or deconstructed in the story. The subject's there in my story and serving its role in the plot, but I always have a choice about how I present it, to reinforce or question a harmful narrative. I can be a small part of a problem that exists in the real world, or I can be a small part of the solution.

 

Yes. Exactly. Beautifully put.

 

It's weird for me to see the argument that our words don't have any effect on our readers. That seems like the opposite of what we should be striving for.

We want people to be emotionally invested in our stories, don't we? We want our words to touch our readers. At least, I do.

So, no, of course someone who's otherwise emotionally strong and mentally healthy isn't going to kill herself because she's read a book that glorifies suicide. And someone who's not emotionally strong and mentally healthy isn't going to kill himself just because he read a book that glorifies suicide. But why the hell would we want to glorify suicide anyway? Why would we want to send such a damaging and stupid message out into the world?

I've written books with characters who abused drugs, and I've shown the damage caused to their lives. Not because I'm trying to send a moral message but because I'm trying to write a realistic, thoughtful book. Drug abuse hurts people. Suicide is not glamorous or smart. etc. I want my books to have an emotional impact on readers, and I want the impact to be based on reality.

 

Exactly. And as someone who has a major character in their book who does drugs, I can agree.
I just want to portray the suicide realistically, and realistically, it’s a terrible thing and shouldn’t happen. But, unfortunately, it does happen.
I feel like you want to teach the reader something, not blatantly, but subconsciously. I want to teach them through including the suicide that it’s not worth it, and you never know, something good could happen if you stay, but you have to stay to find out. And yeah, the MC didn’t want to stay, because his wife was dead and it was his fault in a way, but he gave up being alive to see his fame that would follow. Granted, he didn’t know he was going to get famous, or even know that his poetry was going to get published, but through knowing him as a character, you’d know that fame wouldn’t have swayed him to stay. He loved his wife too much. And once again, that’s where it comes through that if I did let him live, it would almost be an inconsistency in his character. And, again, that comes up in the topic of being realistic. It’s unrealistic to avoid the topic of suicide when it’s prevalent to the story being told.

 

@BV

So, no room for the twenty year old's novel about stuffing his face with pills, glorifying crime, sex, worshipping Satan, slashing wrists, and on..?

 

Yeah, I've known three people to die by suicide, and none of it was romantic.

When it's just the idea, I think it's easier to want to see it in a romantic light, but when it happens to someone you know you just want to respond with any kind of shaming / anger / indignation / sympathy, in any combination, that you think might stop someone else from doing it. At the same time, lots of people will scream "jump" at a stranger standing on a ledge, mad if they don't put on a show. Not my tribe.

I've had strong suicidal ideation in the past. There are a lot of videos, even compilations set to music, of people diving off the golden gate bridge. I've sat there watching them, finding some of it romantic, inspiring, whatever. I didn't know them, but I wanted to be like them. Fortunately, I have the kinds of relationships and things in my life that kept me from going into that altered state of consciousness where you really go for it, and spend a good amount of time and energy combating my tendency towards depression. It wouldn't surprise me if other people thinking about suicide would seek out media, real or otherwise, glamorizing it.

Not really making a point. I don't know what to think of the topic. Just sharing.

 

I don't think the reality of suicide is at all glamorous, but I think for some people, especially drama-hungry teens, the idea of suicide can be.

I know that there used to be a lot of shaming about suicide, especially if a teen did it - don't talk about it, don't admit what happened, pretend the person never existed. And then in an effort to get away from that, a lot of schools and communities got a lot more open about it, a lot more supportive, talked about it more, gave kids a chance to share their feelings and write memorial books and have assemblies and plant trees in the dead kid's honour - and we found that suicides started coming in waves. It was as if all the attention given to the dead kid did glamorize things. Knowing how drama-prone teenagers can be, you can imagine (if you haven't witnessed) the crowds of kids in the hallways of the school, wailing and sobbing and screaming why, why, why. So other kids who are thinking about it? Kids who've maybe been feeling a bit ignored, or misunderstood, or who want people to be on their side and care about them? I think they may see suicide as a way to get a shitload of attention.

Of course they're not around to enjoy it, but teenagers aren't really known for their foresight and rational decision-making.

 

Sure. I mean, one drop of water doesn't drown you. One drop of poison doesn't kill you. One cut doesn't bleed you out.

I've been through this conversation a million times with a million different people. I think it's fair to say that people should think about what they're saying -- at least -- before they open their mouth (or pick up a pen).

EDIT: To clarify--what I mean is-- if you, personally, don't think suicide is glamorous, but you're writing a story that makes suicide look glamorous, then there's a mismatch there. You're not responsible for people misinterpreting your work, but you are responsible for people... like... correctly interpreting your work.

 

But there are people who have firmly planned to commit suicide, and who are now alive and no longer intend to commit suicide. So you may think that situation doesn’t make sense, but it certainly exists.

If your story’s value to you requires that the MC commit suicide, so be it. But if you feel that they have to commit suicide because they formed the intention of doing so, I’d say no.

The story would be far more interesting to me if he found a new reason to live.

 

[Insert Elton John musical reference here.]