Write what you know

Yes, and I take this one step further: orcs are a fictionalization of various human attributes. Morphologically an orc is essentially human. It's the same shape as a human, with eyes, a mouth, arms, legs, etc. Like some people, they're very large, muscular, and warlike. They're like an ultra-masculine barbarian person, with tusks and green skin thrown in to exacerbate their foul characteristics. Orcs, elves, klingons, and vulcans are all different cross-sections of humanity. Fantasy lets us take things that are real, like a fondness for war, and exaggerate them into Orcs and Klingons. We definitely get something out of that, if we didn't then it wouldn't be so popular. Perhaps it lets us take an external perspective on ourselves. It's easier to take an "alien observing earth" perspective when we move the situation away from real events that have pre-existing baggage and biases already in the reader's head.

 

This thread started off with comments on the writing habits of younger writers, diverted into bits of this and that about practices that work for some and less for others and, large-scale, an acknowledgement that there are basics that must be mastered and respected in order to produce some sense of quality story telling. All very sage and commendable, things that help guide me as I try to pass go.

Having said that, the advice I would give to a young person starting out, were I to be asked, is simple. Write like you don't give a fuck. Write like the people who are telling you how to do it are curmudgeonly old farts with a reliance on the rules to offset deficits in imagination. Stop worrying about fitting conventions of whatever recently constructed genre floats your boat and go for it. When you're young, you've plenty of time to morph into a curmudgeonly old fart yourself but, until then, go with whatever and however your vivid imagination throws at you. You may look back and cringe but that's what youth is for. And you won't know that til later.

I also think there's a lot of bullshit about genre or classes of writing. There's good and bad writing in every sphere. There are some well-regarded authors we will detest/like and similar with pulp. There are many high concept fantasy and sci-fi adventures that, because they're well-written, could transfer setting to a pig farm in Offaly. With just a few modifications.

The notion that young people can't write about life is utterly ridiculous. As ridiculous as the notion that a curmudgeonly old fart can provide answers.

As a caveat, I'd also advise that we really don't need all the toys we acquire through life, so, if you're looking to make a living from writing, you might be best placed to seek advice elsewhere.

 

Indeed. This is something I did take issue with, but I didn't want to start a big argument. Everyone has life experiences. It is somewhat insulting to suggest that a young person hasn't experienced life. I understand the sentiment, but it's logically flawed and a bit tedious. A teenager has experienced life because they've lived 13-19 years on this planet. A twenty-something has experienced a bit more than that. Except even that's false. Age doesn't correlate to life experience at all, really. Sure, the problems of a younger person might be more trivial on average, but it's silly to suggest everyone has had safe, comfortable lives. What about young people who flee war-torn countries? What about people who have severe mental illnesses? What about people who are far older than their age suggests and they go out of their way to read and learn and do things that others of their cohort disdain? The underlying notion is, "You're not a real human being like I am, because I'm thirty plus." What age range are we even talking about, anyway?

If I recall, Tolkien enlisted in his early twenties. Fought in the First World War. But, please, tell me how all young people are inferior/naïve/idiotic/unenlightened simply because of the number attached to them.

 

As I originally said, before my words were wildly twisted to suit other people's preconceptions, "I do think though that there is huge value in younger people writing about their view of the world. YOU may think it's mundane but it really isn't; everyone's life is unique."

 

No one is saying there isnt value in it.
Its just that value shouldnt be the only reason for young people to write non genre pieces.

Doctors are valued.
That doesnt mean i should become a doctor.

 

Yes? What does that have to do with my point? I was talking about life experience in general. Also, he was writing crucial Legendarium stories well before those two works... He was building the first versions of the legends of Gondolin and Beren and Luthien as a young man. Those two books you mentioned are really a tiny part of a much, much larger series of myths and legends. But you've got me started on Tolkien...

 

Rimbaud wrote all his poetry by the time he was 20. Lautreamont wrote Maldoror when he was 22 and then... died.

Actually I think it’s more interesting to consider writers who started late.

 

Poetry, at least at the highest levels, is a game for the young. It requires a certain kind of brain activity that begins to atrophy in the late 20's or so. Fiction requires a different kind of brain activity that increases as you get older (up to a point of course). I forget what they're called, let me see if I can find an article.

Here we go:

Fluid intelligence is the ability to solve novel reasoning problems and is correlated with a number of important skills such as comprehension, problem solving, and learning.[3] Crystallized intelligence, on the other hand, involves the ability to deduce secondary relational abstractions by applying previously learned primary relational abstractions.[4]
Source
​

Fluid intelligence is the kind needed for really good poetry. At least that's how I heard it put before, but it seems to me there's poetry that comes more from crystallized intelligence, and fiction that uses a lot of fluid thinking.

This also reminds me of differences in open-mindedness. Some people are naturally more open-minded than others and tend to consider both or multiple sides of issues, while some remain stubbornly single-minded. But of course, stress or sleepiness or emotional turmoil or any number of factors can bring even the most open-minded crashing down to black and white thinking. Getting caught up in an argument can do that, so-called tunnel vision. We're all guilty of it at times.

It's also important to keep in mind that open-mindedness and stubborn resolve are each important in certain situations. Neither is inherently better than the other.

 

Another factor is that the brain doesn't finish growing until the 20's. Looking at my writing and drawings I can see the jump when I was 24. For some it happens in the late teens, but for some not until near 30. The last parts to grow in are in the neocortex (new cortex)—the smart part. It's only after the brain finishes growing that you can begin to really learn and think in adult ways, and it requires another decade or so to reach any great facility at it. This is probably connected with crystallized intelligence.

Of course this doesn't invalidate the ideas and writing of the young. It just means what they write often turns out later to be somewhat silly and lacking in subtlety and complexity of understanding. But this has little to do with the above conversation (at least the original one), since it was about early writing practice and not writing for publication. It's important for the young to write about whatever they want, hopefully ranging far and wide into different territories. What you map out in youth is often what you'll explore deeper later in life.

 

I mostly agree, on average with regards to subtlety but not complexity of understanding. I think quite a few young people know exactly what's 'going on,' however they lack the tact/education to say it in a way the adults can appreciate. Sometimes I feel like I'm finally expressing what twelve year-old me was thinking.

 

Looking into crystallized and fluid intelligence I found a fascinating article. Here's an excerpt:

What I realize now because of all the research I do on neuroscience and peak performance is that at Hampshire, the neural volume and connectivity of my cerebellum was benefitting from all the running, biking, swimming, meditation, yoga, and art-making I was doing regularly. The fact that I never had to cram my head full of crystallized facts actually fortified my fluid intelligence.

Fluid intelligence is directly linked to creativity and innovation. The book smarts of crystallized intelligence can only take a person so far in the real world. Depriving children of recess and forcing them to sit still in a chair cramming for a standardized test literally causes their cerebellum to shrink and lowers fluid intelligence.​

Here's the whole article: Too Much Crystallized Thinking Lowers Fluid Intelligence @ Psychology Today.

 

Another one, a PDF file: Why are smart people curious? Fluid intelligence, openness to experience, and interest

 

Hello everyone! I've explored the forums during the last two months, reading threads here and there with considerable interest. This is the one thread that jolted me into creating my account and joining you all.

I agree with Hyacinthe, Catriona, Nugent and everyone else who believes just write what you want. It is in the writing that we all learn. There's no one way to learn how to write . . . well.

I like huge tales that are bigger than my head and the coffee mug I'm drinking out of as I type this. I moved to LA to be a screenwriter/filmmaker but soon realized the screenplays I wanted to write at this stage in my life would require a $200 million budget. Everyone said write something more grounded. I'm stubborn. So I decided to write a novel instead. Oooooh man! What a challenge! Long story short, I got it done! Now I'm focusing on short stories on main and new characters in the universe. And it's fun! I'm not going to rush to complete the trilogy.

Two things I learned.

1. Write how you write and write what you want to write.
If on your first try you want to write a 500k word count tome, prepare your mind for the battle ahead. It'll be a lot of hard work. But it can be done. COMPLETE A FIRST DRAFT.

2. Hire a good editor and learn to edit your own work with feedback. Even better, hire a great editor!
An editor's life experience will influence how they edit your work. An editor who has kids will not edit like an editor without kids. Hate to say this but race, background, age, you name it, affect how editors edit. Just a fact. Send two important chapters to an editor you're trying out. You shouldn't ask your editor about the details of his/her life. There will be hints in how they edit. Make your call from there. Be open-minded and don't let your sensitivities keep you from becoming a deep thinker and writer.

The truth is no one learns anything substantial writing a first draft of anything. The actual writing starts during the editing process.

Just write!

 

i never feel comfortable with recommending that a writer hire an editor without qualifying the circumstances where a writer actually needs to do this. luckily, there is only one:

a writer does not need to hire an editor until they have written a manuscript that they intend to publish themselves.

A writer who intends to seek an agent to partner with to pursue advance and royalty trade publishing never needs to hire an editor. No, never.

A writer with only one completed novel and a plan to publish independently isn't likely to need to hire an editor yet, because the writer probably doesn't have enough skill and knowledge in writing novels to a level where hiring an editor would actually be effective.

What all writers need to do is actually learn how to write an effective novel before pursuing publishing. Then, depending on your choice about how to get books to readers, you may need to find a reputable editor with a proven record--but again, only if you're doing selfpub.

The only place a tradpub author signs a publishing related check is on the back.

 

I think there is a good reason that younger writers gravitate towards fantasy, namely because it is fantastic. Imagine being the nerd at school being bullied. Or the Not-the-cheerleader girl. Maybe you have a bad home life. Maybe you work a thankless minimum wage job. But when you grab your notebook and pen or your laptop and begin pounding out a fantasy story, you are god. Your characters can defeat dark forces, ride dragons and cast world-shattering spells. It is an escape, and it is freedom. Why, as a young author, would I write what I know when what I know would classify as "suck"? Looking back in my old notebook of my very first attempt at a novel started around age 11, all my characters are two dimensional and some might be described a 1 dimensional. They ran around an ill-defined imaginary world killing hordes of evil creatures. Now at the still young age of 40 with tons of writing behind me and life experiences good and bad, that notebook is amusing to read. It is grotesquely bad writing, terrible world building and horrible characters wandering around with no plot. But it gave me what I needed it when I needed it and while I made it, it also made me. Because of that story I wanted to write, I have never stopped trying to refine my style and improve my skill. And to that I say, write whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want, bad writing is part of the journey, fantasy or otherwise. The important part is to always work to improve.

 

The problem with all that is that actually the writing is very derivative and not at all original.

 

There is no problem with that. None whatsoever. What on earth. Where did you get these ideas? People get to write whatever they want. People get to write whatever they need. You are not the grand high vizier of literature! You don't get to decide what people choose to write, my goodness!

 

Is your point that if people write realistic stories they'll be more likely to write something unique because the person's own struggles are likely to be unique to them? Ironically, most human lives consist of the same struggles... Fantasy is the one thing that allows us to escape from normality and from the mundane. Yes, writing about a knight hunting a dragon isn't likely to get any literary awards and has been done a thousand times, but is that any different (more unique) than writing about relationship troubles, etc?

 

Yes.