Recovering alcoholic. So yeah, I have some experience, and yeah, I know a lot of people who did/do both booze and drugs. I chose to drink. I chose to quit. I choose to stay sober. Can't say that about depression.
Congratulations. I say that sincerely. It must have been, probably still is, a horrendous struggle. Unfortunately, not every addict has that sort of strength.
But it's still a choice to fight it or not. And that's the whole point. I can't decide to quit have depressive episodes. I can decide not to drink.
That is fine, I didn't mean to suggest that you should go around perpetuating myths. Like, the one about the "Evil Genus." The smartest pattern killer they caught is Ted Bundy--and he was only mid-level average. And the only pattern killer with an appreciable sense of humor Ed Kemper--and his jokes were seemingly spontaneous and funny: if it weren't for the fact that were about real people murdered horribly, that is. As far as (and this was not part of the original question) whether people with mental disorders are drawn to creative pursuits, the answer is hell yes...! They are just not that great at them. (they leap for one fail attempt to another--but there is always something not quite right, so...it ends in another failure). And GingerCoffee's link dispels the myth that creativity is linked to madness. Creativity and Mental Illness: Is There a Link? And my own experience has shown me that the successful creative personality is in most cases, is more stable than the general population because they have seen their hard work become successful...and that is a pretty huge gratification. Yes there are a few narcissistic personalities in there but mostly the successful narcissist relied rather heavily on others to get them there.
The source I was looking for was for your statement: The fact is that creative people have less propensity for mental illness than non-creative people. As to whether or not they're 'not that great' at creative pursuits - again, an over-generalization. Some are, some aren't. What's happening here (and not just with your statements) is a continuing clash between fact and fiction/anecdote/fable. There is simply no preponderance of scientific evidence that writers/creative types are more or less prone to mental illnesses than any other specific group.
I don't think we can answer this question, not yet anyway. We can point to studies that say there is no correlation and we can point to concrete examples that indicate the opposite. There are too many intangibles for the studies to be accurate. We don't know how many of these so-called non-creative people would have been creative if they had their imaginations stimulated before they were five, or received other forms of encouragement. We don't know how many of them would be creative if they didn't have to scrape out a living. We don't know how many people buy into 'suck it up' and never seek medical help. And we don't know how many people lie because of the stigma attached to mental illness. On the inside looking out, I can say that depression has pulled me away from my writing, however, it also put me on medical leave and is giving me time to write. Writing that has gained some external recognition, so not a failure. I write despite depression not because of it. I believe the bits of horror that creep into my stories are due to the world we live in and not the depression. Having said all this, I am now hoping that this thread topic will get out of my head and let me continue with my 1st Contact story.
Okay. But I have direct training and working experience that clearly shows me that this statement of yours "In general, I think there's a big problem making any correlation, simply because one doesn't know if people with mental illnesses are drawn to creative pursuits" is incorrect. People with personality disorders are draw to any activity they perceive will confirm to others that they are special. There are several threads in this forum that can show this in action.
But confirmation of being special isn't relegated to creative pursuits. What about sports? They certainly get more accolades simply being on a sports team, whether or not they're a 'star player'. I'm just saying that anecdotal evidence (personal experience) doesn't prove anything as far as the general population. And the valid studies done show no correlation, and certainly no cause/effect.
I'm a bit on the fence with this. I know someone who was severely depressed following an injury and did start drinking in an attempt to alleviate both the physical and mental pain. He became what I understand to be an alcoholic, in as much as drink became his priority and his crutch - until the day his daughter had a riding accident and ended up in A&E with a back injury. He was in the pub too interested in his next drink to get to the hospital. When he sobered up the next day and understood how badly he'd let her, and himself down, he swore never to drink again. And he didn't. He's been tempted, but he hasn't given in to it no matter how low he felt. He has a strong family who have supported him throughout the last few difficult years and they helped him find the strength to cope. Not everyone has that and I can understand how under some circumstances some people can become alcohol dependent as a result of a mental problem. The two can go hand in hand. I also understand that some people drink because they like it and no matter how much help they're offered, there will never be anything in their lives more important than the next drink. But I don't know what drives them to that state in the first place - or if they are just as selfish as they seem. It's easy to judge without knowing the full circumstances. My opinion is tempered by what I know of this one person and I suppose I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, I really think you have a point and if one man can fight for his life and his family at the same time he has to battle mental and physical pain, why can't others? It has to come down to inner strength and, unfortunately, we are not all equipped to deal with what life may throw at us. I'm just grateful to be me and try to understand those who aren't as fortunate as I am.
Evelon, I can empathize with addicts. I just can't sympathize with them. And I fully understand your friend's self-medicating with alcohol. I hadn't had a drink in years when my depression hit full-on, and I turned to alcohol just to get to sleep at night. I continued to drink until I got into therapy for the depression. There I was told they couldn't force me to stop drinking, but this and that could happen with the meds - so I stopped. Addicts just have to get to a point where they want to quit - and sometimes it takes a life-changing event to make them want it badly enough. But nobody stops unless they want to, and nobody goes back to it unless they choose to.
You're right, of course. But I can't help but think that some people have strengths that others don't have. Pity is a terrible thing to feel for anybody, but that's what I feel for those who hit rock bottom and can't find the strength to get back up. Good people can take the wrong road - sometimes it's just a case of 'there but for the grace of God'.
Yes I know. Same goes for being a policeman...or going into politics. They are drawn to any where where they can BE the big-cheese. But, most of them are not able to keep the ball rolling over a long period of time--what about the super-star at the height of their fame or personal power manage nevertheless, to completely self-destruct. I have already agreed that you needn't take my personal experience as proof. But any one involved with these things has pretty good idea what is going on. And it is not what the average person whats to believe is true.
Well, I've been involved with "these things" for a couple decades and more, and I stand by the anecdotal/experience being limited in value. It's like watching a fishbowl and projecting that activity to the ocean.
Oh really...? But of course you know that I wasn't talking about being involved with a personal struggle to over come one (or more) of these problems. I was, as I made clear, talking professionally. And isn't it interesting that you continue to hold to a precept that I am not arguing.
If you are relating your expertise as opposed to a personal anecdote, what are you basing your conclusions on? While my specialty is infectious disease, one of my clients is a psych hospital. I'd say there's no one personality trait of the patients I see. They run the same gamut from introversion to extroversion as in any group of people. The inpatient teens might be said to be a bit more attention seeking than the adults, but it could just be that quiet mentally ill teens tend not to be noticed until they have to stand more on their own. If your kid is aggressive, it's hard to ignore but if your child is abnormally shy or withdrawn, parents are less likely to seek hospitalization for the child. So as a professional, have you considered your patients are not a representative sample of the whole?
I don't know about Hemingway, Faulkner, and King--I don't have drug or alcohol problems. What I have is severe depression, and have it most of the time. Writing through that is like trying to tunnel through 3 feet of concrete with a toothpick and a pair of nail clippers.
Once worked, not currently working in that field. I worked in a team for five years, under a forensic psychologists writing evaluations of violent offenders for the country so that jurors and enforcement didn't have to learn psychological jargon to fully understand the complexities severe personality disorders--or, I should say, the complexities of a particular violent offender. In training I read hundreds of case files of pattern killers, serial rapists, hit men and con men. Not to mention personally knowing 3 victims of serial killers (yeah, lucky me) so let me guess what you are thinking you'll be doing here. You'll be putting your knowing one mental patient--which you haven't identified their diagnosis--up against thousands of hours of looking at the worst of the worst that humanity has to offer, just to make an incredibly small point that I am not arguing anyway. No...this will not be your next bull-shit session. There has been way too much narcissistic posturing on this site over the last few weeks. And that is what all of the personality disorders have in common. .
What I will say, re: MI and any possible correlation to artistry, is that I am pretty tired of and downtrodden by repeatedly hearing people tell me that since I'm mentally ill, surely I should be a great creator. My illness hinders my creativity, if anything. I think it should be taken as what it is: some artists are mentally ill, and some are not. Some people with mental illness are artists, and some are not. There you have it.
Well, people like to live comfortable lives and it applies also for these who are avoiding any kind of confrontation. Its not a disease, they just make things easier this way and face it, society is pretty much claiming just what they don't like and must be hard to focus on your own preference
To be exceptionally withdrawn can indeed be a symptom of mental illness or an emotional disorder. Not to say that every distant child needs to be evaluated; but it's also inaccurate to say society's preference is wholly what defines mental illness or lack thereof, if I'm reading you properly.
I don't think such point does any good even if it was really a disease. Maybe for some autistic scientists, for they feel much better if they think they can handle that with knowledge
So your fishbowl is the "worst of the worst". It still doesn't extend over the entire ocean of mental illness.
True, but it is a much bigger fishbowl than yours is. But please continue to indulge yourself with the delusion that just because you can think-up an argument that that means you actually have one.
He has the same valid argument I've posted. Systematic observation does not find a relationship, as opposed to observation of a non-random sample which you say does. Who said avoiding confrontation was a disease? What I said was a child with a mental illness that included a manifestation of shyness or introversion is less likely to be hospitalized by their parents. So until the child was expected to be more independent (aka an adult) they wouldn't end up in inpatient treatment. I was referring to a variable that might affect the sample of inpatient teens in the psych hospital I do consulting work for. What does this even mean? On a broader note, scientific knowledge has an excellent track record. Success is an unbeatable indicator one is on the right track.
