Writing from a male's perspective?

I focus on the person way before the gender when writing because I think of why they are acting a certain way. For example, I wouldn't say a certain male character constantly talks about women and sex just because he's a man. Maybe he's got an extra high sex drive and can't help thinking about women. Or maybe he's a self- hating gay man who is desperate to stay in the closet.

 

I think gender is a consideration, not the main character consideration, but not one I'd personally like to ignore entirely. There's nothing wrong with wanting some of your males to have some typical male traits or some of your females to have some typical female traits. I think most people are made up of a mixture of typical traits and unusual traits. The typical traits wouldn't be typical if a lot of people didn't possess them.
Also if you're just writing one or two characters you can get away with most stuff, because you can fairly argue, that's how this particular character behaves, but if lots of characters start having the same peculiarities you may get called out for not knowing what you're doing.

If you're trying to write a typicalish member of the opposite gender that is where you may need to be careful and try and figure out what actually is typical, rather than being lazy and going for the stereotypical.
If you wrote about a man who constantly spoke about women and sex, I think you'd have actually made than man less typical. I certainly don't talk about women and sex much, nor do most of the other men I know. It could be I'm wrong because I'm nerd and tend to move in slightly nerdy circles, but I don't think so.



Incidently the following was written by Raymond E Feist on the Authonomy website.

"You have written from the female perspective before: how difficult is it to master that voice?
I’m getting better at it, but I think it’s historically easier for women to write convincing male characters than it is for men to write female characters. It’s because women read so much more stuff staring men while they’re growing up, though that is certainly changed in the last twenty five years. The only male writer I knew years back who did it effortlessly was Ted Sturgeon, but he was a very gentle soul who looked into people in a way most of us can’t. It’s one of the main reasons I asked Janny to collaborate on the Empire series. I wanted the protagonist to be a strong woman; I just had this feeling if it was Lord Mara instead of Lady Mara it would be just another adventure novel. I think that series has levels of complexity I’ve never achieved by myself, and that’s mostly due to Janny."

 

Getting back to crying for a moment: I, too, have only an anecdote and a couple of ideas to share, but perhaps they might offer a few insights into how some men work in regards to crying.

I think you are correct in stating that most men have been raised to avoid crying because it can be seen as a show of weakness and vulnerability in men, something a lot of us have been taught to avoid. I know quite a few women and likely some men find crying to be a relatively effective coping mechanism, a release of sorts. The reason why I, for instance, can't do that (not without some serious reprogramming anyway) is that I automatically see crying as a shameful act in my case, as a man. I don't condemn other men if they cry because they just e.g. lost a parent, but even when I do have a "valid" reason to cry and if I do, the act carries several negative connotations and hence doesn't really work very well as a release / coping mechanism but instead brings on feelings of guilt, shame, and inferiority which usually don't help much.

Since that outlet is pretty much barred from a lot of men, they create another one. Which brings me to the next idea. I have absolutely no evidence to support this, but it makes sense to me, so I'll throw it out there:
what if testosterone levels affect our emotional responses? Those with a lot of testosterone in their systems are often more aggressive than those with less, right? So doesn't it stand to reason, then, that those with high testosterone levels are more prone to express extreme emotional distress through anger, rage, even violence, i.e. an active act instead of what is essentially a passive act, crying? I'm not sure if we're hard-wired to see it like that or if it's just heavy indoctrination or if it's both, but to me, crying also looks like a rather submissive act, which is, again, at war with an aggressive disposition.

At least quite a few animals react to submissive acts, vulnerable body language etc, seeing it as a sign of weakness, so it wouldn't surprise me if such remnants remained in humans as well. Of course our capacity for logical thinking can override our baser reactions, but that doesn't necessarily eradicate their existence. I would imagine that especially in older cultures, shows of weakness among men were an even bigger deal than they are today, so perhaps the presence of some sort of hard-wired inclination to avoid shows of weakness and vulnerability isn't such a far-fetched notion. It would be interesting to find out if there's any scientific data to support or disprove this idea.

 

It's an interesting theory, yes. I would tend to lean toward a closely related but slightly different theory: That they have to get those emotions out *somehow*, and if they refuse to cry, they find another emotional expression that will give them a similar feel-good body chemistry. In fact, I just wandered off to Google, and confirmed that both crying and rage are known to increase dopamine levels.

 

If one wanted to look at the relationship of testosterone to lack of crying, one could look at men with a testosterone deficiency and see if they cry more or more easily.

 

So very literal...

 

That's a good point, one I'd forgotten about. As far as I've understood, a part of it relates to adrenaline: many stressful situations cause adrenaline release and usually that results in a state that requires some sort of an outburst (controlled or uncontrolled) before a person can fully relax and move on. From what I've read, crying, shouting (in anger), and physically taxing activities such as heavy exercise or fighting all work as outlets for the frustration and whatever else negatives adrenaline causes in us.

If my memory serves me right, quite a few people who work high-stress jobs, such as cops, bouncers etc. often end up in situations where they are exposed to adrenaline but if, e.g. a potentially violent confrontation never goes anywhere, they may end up feeling anxious and jittery after the work day. For many of them, relaxing calls for some kind of a release and quite a few have observed that if they don't do it in a controlled fashion (e.g. by working out), it will happen in an uncontrolled fashion (e.g. lashing out at your spouse) because the pent-up stress has to go somewhere.

So if crying is not a viable option, I'd imagine it may very well be the case that the release happens through aggression, be it at home or at the gym, for instance. I can't remember the exact sources for this, but I can look them up if need be.

 

Yep, that all makes sense to me.

A frequently-mentioned, if anecdotal, fact is that people with OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, different from OCD) have a tendency to find a grievance("There are cookie crumbs on the counter!!!!"), rage at their famiy members about it for a little while, and almost immediately afterward (in minutes) be inexplicably *happy*, happier than they usually are, and puzzled as to why everyone including the family members they were raging at isn't happy too. Sometimes it appears that they don't even remember the raging. I find this consistent with the idea that the raging releases feel-good chemicals into the bloodstream and/or brain.

But your thought about...what to call it? I'm going to say "unfulfilled adrenaline." Your thought makes me wonder if perhaps it would be worthwhile studying OCPD and adrenaline. Somehow.

 

I've been away from my computer for a couple of weeks, and am just back. This has been an ..errm... interesting thread to read through.

One aspect of the subject of male crying that might be of interest to writers is what it MEANS for a male character to cry openly. Because crying openly is so discouraged and carries such social risk for a man in our society, it means that whatever provokes his crying has affected him deeply. It can certainly be used as a marker for his state of mind.

I know I personally pay close attention to any male I see shedding tears—especially outwith accepted venues such as funerals—because I'm pretty sure the poor guy is really really cut up about something or deeply moved in some way. Females on the other hand are 'allowed' to cry more openly, so a female in tears might be angry or disappointed, or mildly hurt—or also really cut up about something or deeply moved in some way.

I think somebody mentioned earlier that there is a difference between wanting to cry and actually doing it. I think that's an important factor to consider, whatever the situation and whoever the character may be.

I think people in our society (females included) are disciplined to suppress tears, but that doesn't mean they don't want to shed them. Sometimes a stoic person who is visibly struggling not to cry is a more emotionally attractive character than one who just gives in to tears at the drop of a hat. However, it does depend on the character and the situation.

I remember an incident in my deep past, where a group of us gave a guy a present which he did not expect. He was normally quiet and self-contained, certainly not an OTT emotional guy. Tears started rolling down his cheeks when he realised we'd taken the time to give him a gift at all. It was just a silly gift, so it was the gesture from us that mattered. It was a very revealing moment.

 

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Psychology+Gender+Studies&FORM=QSRE3

This might help you.

Other than that, what you need is experience for a number of years. I'm a 60 year old man, so talking to me would be like talking to someone else's grandfather for you as a teen. I commend you for trying to understand the opposite gender as young as you are. Shoot! I commend you for taking reading and writing seriously! Too many young folks these days think "gangly" means hoodlum involved and "benighted" is something that happened to Mick Jagger and Elton John. I recommend continuing to sit on that dictionary, take in a lot of human drama about young people and reading what us old fogies have published in Psychology Today. Other than that? Interview some nerds, jocks and pros. Ask a lot of grandfathers and fathers. Ask questions.

Imagine this:

I remember how my dad always seemed too critical of my work. It was discouraging when, even after attempting the cut on the table saw twenty times, I still fell short of the mark of his perfection. My shop teacher, unfortunately for my grade, seemed to agree with him. Talent prevailed.
Electronics flourished. The science teacher wasn't thrilled about my frowsy appearance, still I had the knack at making perfect solder joints. Oscillators hummed. Dad avoided me at my own meager workbench. The smell of a smoldering solder must have seemed too mysterious for the cabinet maker.
I'd become enthralled with circuit boards and transistors since I was twelve. One day I turned fifteen. One day the pint sized robot I'd built from a couple handfuls of hell box parts and Amazon purchased motors, whirred its tank treads up and along his pant leg, delivering him the paper.
I'll never forget the look on his face as he marveled at the foot high mechanism. He smiled. Then that smile turned to a frown as he realized he'd just missed the winning field goal.




I think I learned a good deal about the female POV by reading Harlequin novels and listening to the comments of a long term girlfriend who was an avid reader. She also liked Sci-fi, which is my chief form of creative writing. Women are drawn to the smell of flowers and the sight of shiny, little things. Men are drawn to the smell of motor oil and shiny, big machines. Alpha type personalities usually favor the antagonist. Keyword is "usually." Alpha-Beta mix usually favor the good guys, still there's no happier ending than the climactic triumph of some Omega type who learned how to stand up and fight over the course of a story.

Hope that's some food for thought. I recommend you don't ever get discouraged, but keep in mind the human brain isn't fully developed till we are about 25. Best of luck to you.

 

I was trying to edit my last post to include this excerpt from a novel I already have written, but NOOOOOO!
Here's an example of male tears:


*********************************************************************************************

Bailey burst into the swapping chamber control room. “Alexander!” She was frantic, wheeling the poor young woman, who was then my wife, quickly in on a gurney. “She's dying!!”
“What?” I couldn't believe it. “Is there anything we can do?” I watched as one side of her head began to swell.
“No.” Bailey shook her head. I could tell she was truly lamenting. “Her brain is forming successive aneurisms. She has a few minutes... a half hour at best.”
Then it dawned on me. The solution to the entire dilemma was being handed to me on a silver platter. “Maggie,” I looked at the tabby with her glimmering, cybernetic eyes. “Please... Tune in on the M1, just prior to the impact. Assess Lynda's body mass and set a compensation mass pellet or extraction from whichever side it takes.”
“We're going to swap the two ladies?” Maggie sounded matter of fact.
“Yes.”
“Why didn't you just say that?”
**********************************
MAGGIE KNEW BEST, or at least at that moment. I had tears streaming down my face in silence. I was unable to differentiate between the sorrow of Alleah dying and the unfathomable elation of knowing the real Lynda might be returning to me. I kissed her humoring her by calling her Lynda.
I knew that the brave one time Eloi had grown to love me so much that she wanted to be everything I ever longed for. She gave her last dying effort in trying to say something to me as she lay naked upon the swapping pedestal. Her mouth opened, then in a flash she popped out as in a fraction of another second, faster than any of us could turn our heads, the incoming, living, breathing woman from the M1 in 2027 blinked in to 847,397, encased within the typical thin sphere of ice that shattered as soon as it appeared in the new frame. At first all I could see was a bank of the fog from the dry ice with a silhouette crouched in its midst. Then the mist faded. Lynda didn't. My tears were flowing like a waterfall.
She took a gasp like someone who suddenly returned from a pulmonary seizure. She looked around and realized her nakedness. I rushed to her with the sheet from Alleah's gurney, placing it over her shoulders. She looked up at me wanting to speak but still in shock. She took a few more deep breaths, then suddenly she smiled and reached up to touch my wet face. “Why are you crying?”
“Because...” My words stuck in my throat. “Because I... because you are here and... and it's been so long... and...” She placed a tender finger across my lips. Then she threw her arms around me, lab coat and all.


**************************************************************************************************************************
Just an example of an Omega fellow's final triumph... or is it?

 

I just have to chime in here that I do not think this would be a very good method for learning "the female POV," (whatever that really is, anyway). And my cousin hates flower scents. That would not be a very good way to woo her.

 

Them's a-fightin' words.

 

Aye, Lass! I'm a certain Murchertach would have ran from ya's shiny broadsword and hid in a vat of water, while his castle burned and collapsed upon him.

Fight against the tyrant, not the aging magician... Please! (My bones are weak, my head it aches... or is it the other way around?)

How's the volcanic ash floating across from Iceland these days? (Serious question.)

POV = Point of View, not, as the military defines such, Privately Owned Vehicle...

This is true, but there are females out there of a widened spectrum today. Same as it is not the social norm (whatever THAT is) for the man to cry, especially not while painted blue and white at the metaphorical coliseum, women are expected to avoid breaking a nail. (Did I hear an echo of Ed Asner's famous line, "Spunk! I hate spunk!" while Archie Bunker comes out of the closet? ) If one wants to write, romantically especially, as would a woman, it would seem wise to read a good number of romance books written by women. Even sci-fi, written by women, seem to notice more of the ornate details, or so I've found, than the power drive of the man.
ALL mammals produce estrogen, testosterone, adrenaline, cortisol and, last but not least, progesterone and oxytocin. It's more common nowadays for men to acknowledge their feminine hormones and for women to acknowledge their masculine hormones. Still, the average reader might want to reject a neutered POV. The question is are we writing for ourselves or for the marketed audience?

 

@DrWhozit

I would like to think so otherwise I would have had to boot his lily-livered arse into the middle of the following week.

Volcanic ash? Well, we can still see the sun when it strays out from behind a cloud. Serious answer—we've heard very little about it since it happened. Aside from the cost to the airlines, there's been little to no mention of it at all.

 

In case you're a wonderin', Lass, that's a scene from some folklore of an Irish Druid priestess named Sin. She was the beloved of that kindly old magician, Merlyn. (I have an unfinished stage play about this... sort of.

Sounds as though NI was reasonably lucky on that one.

 

They tend not to admit it.

As for male versus female characteristics. Gosh, that is a topic for several dozen Ph.D. dissertations and then some. Despite innumerable similarities in traits and behavior of men and women, I believe,there are often different reason and motivations behind those desires and needs. Although the end result may look the same, the initial trigger can be, and I stress can be, very different. So much of what we do comes down to good old fashioned biology, aka sex. I suggest reading,

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature

The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped …

A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the Internet Tells Us About Sexual Relationships

There are many in this genre these days.

This is not to write better sex scenes but to get a better glimpse into the daily dance that we dress for, intentionally or not, and the motivations behind it. We change a lot with age, and how our characters present, must take this into account.

 

Today I'm like Booger sporting a mason's trowel to win the war against the substantial base for a junked water heater tank to become a wood burning fireplace. Between cinder block and brick layers I pop in here to see what's shaking...

Good post. Hope our aspiring teen writer is not overwhelmed with all this response.

 

First of all, there are actually a fair number of romance novels written by men. Often they use a pen name or initials, though.
Secondly, I did not say there were no differences between men and women or male and female POVs. I said that reading romance novels, which cater to a very particular audience, would not be the best method for learning or discerning a good female POV. A "neutered" POV was not mentioned at all. Nor do I think one would be particularly successful.

 

@chigacoliz,
I'm treading softly now...

3rd person narratives often seem neutered these days. In fact it seems, sometimes, that the writer hopes to disguise their gender through initials in lieu of their full name. Sometimes it's surprising to discover it when he or she becomes a best selling author.

FWIW, I'm not disagreeing with you, agreeing with you or admonishing. I'm certainly not God's gift to women, but I believe I've learned at least something worthwhile from reading both fiction and non-fiction written by women. Currently, the book I'm working on is the third in a series and, where the first two were mostly 1st person male perspective, this one is not only written from the female as the 1st person narrator, but a cybernetic female persona that has taken the form of a cat. I entered this discussion because not only could I offer my method, but learn from other suggestions. Plus I'm new and certainly blundering... ABZ dudes do that at times.

 

Men aren't allowed to cry you mean. Girls aren't really told they need to stop feeling.
There's a difference.
Hormones play a big roll in moods though.

I don't cry as much as I used to. Even as a girl though, I never cried around people.
The image that it was "weak" got ingrained into my head.

With my stories I write the outside world in a typical way but the character is never easy to read.

Some have even told me the characters were not believable.
This however is like telling me that I don't exist.
I do give creditable reason as to why the character is not typical though.
I try to give a plausible route that explains why this particular he acts more like a she
vice versa.

 

I think perhaps you might find a middle of the road for your own persona, saying, as writing narrator you may always be pressed to think objectively of the character, but that's just a rule. When I write I do what I can to metaphorically become my characters. There will always be some of that in reverse, because an invention always has some of the inventor's character in it. I might write a computer program that gets the job done by one method while someone else writes it and gets the job done another. Same goes for thinking, for the sake of the written word, like the other gender.

 

Facinating: Them's fight'in words???
No, them's accurate words. Male's and female's are stamped in the womb. Hormones, male and female, are dispensed there too. Anyone who doesn't believe in the Bell Curve theory is naïve of the truth about the commonness and uncommonness of characteristics among males and females.

The real truth in the thread above is the understanding that the fiction writer must understand the common characteristics but strive to give fictional characters edges and peaks and valleys of personality that make them "interesting" and story worthy.

There are a lot of generalizations that are true. They became generalizations for a reason.

 

Concisely. [thumbups it]

 

The imagery of a man crying is pretty powerful. Like nearly all men I also refuse to cry, but it's not because I think it's a weakness or that it'll show that I'm vulnerable. It's rather a fear that's been forced upon me from society—I'm afraid to cry. I don't really understand it myself, but it's not like crying solves anything so I don't bother myself to worry about it. To be honest, I haven't been in a situation where I've wanted to cry in years, it's only until I read this thread I thought about it again.

I used to suffer from severe social anxiety, it's faded now, but a few years back I found myself on the brim of crying in so many social situations daily—I did everything I could to fight back the tears. I've only ever cried once since I became self aware. I was younger then but I still had that masculine mentality that crying was worse than death. It was a pretty awkward situation, I fell out with a girl I was in love with, and my mum kept nagging at me to talk about it. Eventually I caved, and fucking burst! Literally. It was kind of intense. I can't really recall the emotions that I felt back then but it did feel like a release. I instantly felt much better. But, ever since that day I've never been in a situation where I was that emotionally torn up. So I guess if I am pushed to my absolute limits, I will crack, because I genuinely was in love with that girl.

Also, this is coming from a guy who is EXTREMELY reserved in my real life. I'm not as outgoing as I am on the internet. In fact, it's probably the reason why I am so outgoing on the internet—to over compensate.

I think the reason for this withdrawn type behaviour is simply because men naturally have bigger egos than females. Pretty simple reason really.