Writing Immoral Characters

. I imagine most people would, but my character isn't most people. It's hard to be sixteen with your whole life in front of you and then suddenly expected to give it all up and die. My character loves this other person, but she is also selfish by nature. She's very giving, but she has a limit to how much she will give.

 

As I mentioned before, I have an ageless (Immortal) Demon-Dragonkin.

The demon serves two masters, it's deity master and a mortal master. However, it reluctantly serves the latter.

At some point, the demon is able to kill members of the Mortal Masters family in an attempt to free itself from it's mortal Masters servitude. This includes two small children.

When control of the demon is reclaimed, the demon explains that it sees Mortals the same as a mortal see an ant.

So the killing of the two children, we would see as an immoral act but to the demon it's the same as killing a bug.

Is the demon immoral? Granted it is a demon, LOL!

 

Yes it is. While the amount of suffering that can be experienced scales from one being to another, there is a threshhold that just makes it immoral to cause it. While you could argue an ant barely feels pain and its companions don't really mourn it, humans definitely do.
This is a big question in philosophy. If you're willing to kill 2 people to save 3, are you willing to kill 4 for to save 6? Does this have the same moral value?
I would argue fervently against it; in my opinion, scale is hugely important.

 

I have a surprise for youuuuu...

You're King For A Day, Tyrant Administrator! The highest authority in the Unified State of America!! You are a subject, and the sole executive of The Dignity Law. Your highest priority is preventing human extinction, then human suffering, then human dignity (as defined). For every successful decision you make, some people will die. For every failure, many will perish. If you fail to decide, those in question will all die, by tens of thousands. This is your punishment. You cannot refuse. You cannot die. You cannot turn away from what you see, and you see all. Have fun!!

 

One word: Holiday

 

Remember, you are applying the rules of Humanity onto a creature that's not human.

I would argue that, to the demon, he doesn't see it as immoral since humans are considered lesser beings to him. And he himself can't be immoral since he doesn't apply to the laws of humans

However, having said that. Part of his story arc is to learn the value of humanity, thus recognizing the immorality of slaughtering two children and some other people too.

And later on he protects a group of children from harm. And ends up becoming a guardian for a nation.

 

Sounds like a version of the god dilemma. But I would switch the priorities: first prevent human suffering, then human extinction

 

I

I would argue that the laws of morality exist independent of humans. They apply to all conscious beings, to which I would count your demon. It's still a cool point of view on the issue, the fact that I think this line of reasoning is flawed does absolutely not mean the demon can't have it.
I would interpret your ending as the demon having discovered a more valid form of morality than a "human" one.

 

That doesn't make any sense, that would imply animals are aware of morality.

I don't think a wolf thinks of the morality of killing and eating its prey. Also, if a wolf kills a human, that wolf is not a killer, it's a wolf being a wolf.

Animals have no concept of morality, nor would they need to.

I would also argue, that is an isolated tribe of humans never learned of morality, they would have no idea what it is.

Morality isn't a thing of nature, but a societal concept formed by individual societies.

There's no reason for the demon to have a natural change of heart towards humans.

 

Humans do not suffer when extinct. Neither do they have morality. Neither exists morality, purely our human construct. In our terms, it expires with us, for all we know. This makes it more fun to write.

 

Considering humans of this time period cannot even agree among themselves about what is 'Moral', expecting an immortal or alien being who has experienced or seen so much more to have the same moral compass is a bit silly. Are they immoral if their framework of morality is completely alien to us?

With alien/immortal beings I would argue that the definition of immoral is more closely related to the definition of selfish. Do they act in such a way that solely benefits themselves at the expense of all others? If yes, then I'd likely agree they are immoral. Do they act in what they wholeheartedly believe is in the best interest of others? Then even if they act in a way that many do not approve/understand/agree with, I would not call them immoral.

 

Alien/immortal beings definition of immoral closely related to selfish? How so? An alien/immortal's definition of immoral would be based on their upbringing and reasoning not what kind of living creature they are.

 

I meant they would be seen as selfish in our(non-immortal human) eyes.

 

Long fallen by the wayside, morality as a pure absolute has been corrupted by control. People in the mainstream no longer trust the morality of what they have to look up to. We know too much, and see too much to accept control from the 'righteous' or 'moral' dogma.
My point is that 'morality' is a writers' toy. Ever has it been.

I try to be a moral person, but it comes with responsibilities. I believe there are things people should not do; murder, destructive violence, child abuse (including sex), and even manipulating others for gain.
An example of responsibility is the sexual guardianship of young people. We are learning that protecting them involves nurturing their sexual development for their later sexual identity and personal identity. Control would be immoral, especially for the convenience of the guardians.
Responsibility includes challenging morals and redefining them over time, lest they lead to corruption as a consequence.
Challenge your morality by writing an opposition piece. I did, as a machine, and ended up proving the existence of God (as defined/undefined). It also created The Dignity Law.
My entire story is now a morality play, turned on its head.
Toys can be useful.

 

I've tried to write immoral characters before, and it's never really worked out. I can't bring myself to make my protagonists bad people, so they always turn into (at best) conflicted heroes. Like Kulgan in The Gray Ranger: Unforgiven, was supposed to be a pretty scummy guy, even if he was on the good side. But instead, he turned out more like a good guy who was struggling to get away from his dark past. Not a bad way to write a character, just not what I originally wanted him to be.

 

I agree with everything you said. My argument was not that everything that HAS consciousness can or should apply moral laws. Of course, we cannot expect such contemplations from a wolf.

Rather, I'm just arguing for the fact that they exist independent of humans as a race. In the real world, only humans can apply them, since only humans have the capacity to reflect over morals.
But in fiction,

I love your approach, and now I understand your content. I also try to write what I don't believe... I think there's a sort of dignified modesty to it. Also, it's a powerful mental exercise.
I'm a moral objectivist, meaning I believe that some moral codes are superior to others and that there are always some courses of action that are morally the best (like not exerting sexual control over young people).

 

Christianity! MF'ers. The one true Superior standard of morality!

If you disagree with me, you're heretics who need to burn!!! in the unholy flame of hell.

Whahahahah .


(Disclaimer: just in case anyone misses it, I'm just joking)

 

Gotcha,

 

This is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping for. Thanks so much for sticking to OP and keeping it relevant to writing issues. I now have new respect for all your points of view, in that you all or I could easily be a character in our own stories - trying to sort out the application of our beliefs in a chaotic world while holding on to them. Compromising a personal value for a greater good is not a reversal. Conflict is delicious drama, waiting to be served on our paper plate.

 

LOL i never clicked post how dis happen?

 

...I'm an atheist my friend

 

I'm not...