My first attempt at a novel (around 12,000 words...) was a frame story. So each chapter was a short story in the over-arching book. The characters were pretty independent of each other, but at least now I know I can write 12000 words of fiction (almost a novella!) and finish something front to back.
I may be the only one disturbed by the idea that short stories will somehow prepare one for writing novels. One kind of writing does not lead into another. There are certainly similarities between different kinds of writing, but one won’t necessarily “prepare” you for another kind. Sure, playwriting and screenplays are very similar, but both are formatted differently and require different mindsets for the format. That shouldn’t suggest, however, that certain kinds of writing will, as others have mentioned, help you train yourself in certain skills. Poetry will made you more sound and visual sensitive to words, and plays and scripts will help with dialog to move action. Just a thought. I think a writer should start wherever they’re most comfortable. If you’ve got a massive idea that can’t fit into a short story, try a novel. Hell, that writer may find that it actually doesn’t work as a novel, but fits better as a play. Someone’s poem with a very fixed rhyming structure might function better as a song. Whatever idea might fit the medium, a writer should start where they’re comfortable.
I believe that these are completely different types of writing. It depends on the writer himself. Someone writes exacellent catchy short pieces, others are more about long involving novels. That's it.
the benefit inherent in starting out with short stories is that it allows beginners to practice and hone their writing skills without being locked into a work that will take a year or more to complete... if they're not writing at a professional level at the start, by the time they get to the end of a novel, their writing style and proficiency will most likely vary greatly from the first to the last word, resulting in having 100k words that are a patchwork quilt of inconsistent quality, instead of a smooth, marketalble ms by a writer who's worth the time of agents and publishers...
But how many first novels are marketable anyway, especially at the end of the first draft? I've written novel-length, short stories, and flash-type fiction - while they have some basic writing skills in common, they are totally different animals in other ways, requiring totally different skill- and mind-sets. Not saying it's not possible for writers to be good at both, but one does not 'lead' to the other.
For me (right here and now) I find it too daunting to write a novel. So much so, that I spent a lot of time in the last three years not writing at all (I have ideas for 3 novels and haven't written anything worth while). So writing short stories is a way to do some writing. Also, from short stories come good characters and good novels. One of my favourite writers, Joe R Lansdale, wrote The Bottoms (brilliant book, I recommend it) based on a short story (more of a novella really). There are many examples of films being made from short stories (Bladerunner being an obvious one), so they can be a brilliant source of ideas.
That's funny, I always that of a novel as a series on continual short stories... Maybe not, but if done right one could just outline a novel and make each chapter a sort of mini book. I like the sound of that.
sw... while i agree that in construction, novels and short stories are significantly different, they're very much the same as far as writing style and skills go... which is why it's often a good idea to start the learning process with shorter works...
Not really. If each chapter is a 'mini-book', you've written a collection of short stories, not a novel.
I suppose, then again what is a chapter? An episode. So, a short story is just a brief story with fewer word requirements, versus a novel which has a larger word allowance, more extensive and can be quite descriptive. With chapters you break this book/novel into episodes, which I find to be very similar to a short story. I am just stating how I think, it may not be valid, but it is my point of view. I suppose it depends on how you look at things.
Writing a multitude of shorter stories is more daunting to me than writing two or three bigger ones. The reason being, I can hardly step out of the genre that I am writing in once I started. But I guess what counts is that you write, not what you write even though some variation might help in developing a stronger voice.
Just wanted to mention, it is not necessarily true that if you are able to write short stories that somehow one is prepared for novel and vise versa. In many walks of life there are people who specialize in a subject, outside of the specialized field they aren't really good at a a broader sense of that subject, that is because they have only been looking at the trees not the forest. Also, I believe it is also how you think of the two stories. A story is a story, do you wish to condense it or expand it. When you make one, so complicated where it sit on a league of it's own, many will be inclined as to think they can't do it simply because( As I am strongly inclined to think).
Chapters are not complete stories. They do not introduce, progress, resolve. They continue from one to the next. Some things may be introduced, others resolved, but they are only part of the story, not the whole thing.
shadowwalker, I am sure you have some valid points, I would like to believe I have some as well. Unfortunately, I never said a chapter was a complete story... If I did perhaps you can reference that, and I would be sure to fix my statement. As for chapters, I believe I was clear about what they were and what I thought they were similar to. Oh yes, the only reason I brought up chapters being similar to short stories was because that is how I see it. It helps me to create something bigger, a novel let's say. I mentioned it because I felt someone might honestly benefit from thinking about such a thing in a different way.
"I always that of a novel as a series on continual short stories... Maybe not, but if done right one could just outline a novel and make each chapter a sort of mini book."
post #41 I really am lost at what you are implying. I already told you what I THINK it novel seems to be, and that is what I stand by. I don't really need someone to tell me otherwise, I didn't say a CHAPTER was a short story, so I really don't understand where that came from, lol. What something is, and how I think of something are entirely two separate things. Cheers.
Roald Dahl. His short stories are amazing. He wastes no time. The way he uses his words. Very inventive. No messing. Your there.
One should just write what they want, whether it be a short story or a novel. As long as you're writing something I don't think it matters. But they're not interchangeable (ie, a short story is not just a shorter novel). I find my process when I wrote short stories and now when I write novels has completely changed. As a teenager/in my younger 20s, I just wanted to write short stories because to write a novel was too daunting. After a long break and now in my late 20s, I write novels but no short stories.
Okay, a question then: assume that the writer is, indeed, making said mistakes. S/he's making them, not by accident, but because he or she doesn't know better. When this writer finishes the project, be it a novel or a short story, and reads it back, knowing no better, won't they fail to recognize it as a mistake? Further, given that as a group we love reading, and passed English (even if it took two tries for a given semester), we have the same general background so far as knowledge of the compositional techniques we learned in school. Doesn't it follow, then, that pretty much all new writers are going to make the same class of mistakes? I ask those questions because if the answer is yes to both questions, it would seem that some of those mistakes are inevitable and that people who share our situation, because they're making the same sort of mistakes, aren't in a position to even point them out. And while it would seem that readers can tell us that there are problems, as Sol Stein said, “Readers don’t notice point-of-view errors. They simply sense that the writing is bad.” If the above is true, I doubt that the act of typing and editing our stories, using the skills we already possess, is going to change the situation. It would seem that more is needed, like a list of the kind of mistakes new writers make, and the information needed to correct/eliminate them. And that's my point. Feedback of the kind we get here is invaluable, because every comment a reviewer makes is a spot where our brilliant prose didn't mesmerize that reader. The fact that they did stop indicates a "lump" in the prose. But how they suggest fixing it is how they would fix it, and it isn't necessarily a fix that an acquiring editor will smile on. In the end, I favor Holly Lysle's advice: “Michaelangelo did not have a college degree, nor did Leonardo da Vinci. Thomas Edison didn't. Neither did Mark Twain (though he was granted honorary degrees in later life.) All of these people were professionals. None of them were experts. Get your education from professionals, and always avoid experts.” My personal favorite professional is here. As for short stories and novels they help us learn different skills. There's nothing like having a 3000 word limit and a 3210 word manuscript to make you think about what's necessary and what's fluff. When, after you've condensed and combined, and still need to remove fifty words without losing meaning or excitement you'll think about the role and purpose of every word in the story. And that's a skill you need no matter the story length. A novel, on the other hand will give practice nesting complexities, and managing and pacing the rising tension that's at the heart of any story. So they both have their role.
You assume a lot of things. I didn't learn English as a first language, therefore what I learned from school greatly differs from you. As for recognizing mistakes, I guess that's the purpose of the workshop on this site.
I'm starting off with short stories because they are much more manageable. I still have a lot to learn, and working on short stories will hopefully allow me to hone my skills a bit before taking on a bigger project.
