Writing Voice

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by arron89, Jun 26, 2009.

  1. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Add a pinch of gays, and stir the plot?

    ...
     
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  2. Malina

    Malina Member

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    In terms of LGBQ+ I was thinking more about representation and making the characters justice, as many people pretend they aren't a part of our society... Honestly, I don't find anything amusing in those characters. Some may be because of their nature, but sexual orientation isn't particularly funny out of itself.
     
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  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I haven't read it. I don't plan to read it; I don't think I'd enjoy it.

    But BDSM is hardly shocking now, and it wasn't all that shocking pre-50 Shades. And there were lots of books with BDSM in them before 50 Shades came along that didn't sell like 50 Shades did. So I can't see how it was just the shock value that made it successful.

    And even if it was just the shock value, then... it was the shock value that made it effective. To be able to continue shocking people not only over the course of an entire book, but an entire trilogy? Surely that's effective writing...

    ETA: I just took a look at the reviews on Amazon. Based on the top five... " I was hooked on Christian... I'm not into the who erotica or submissive/dominant thing, but I just enjoyed seeing where the story would go." "Her descriptions of the love felt by Ana for Christian will make most men yearn for someone who loves them that much. No concern about his monetary success. Just a great love for what she can see "hidden in him" and through her love brings out goodness in him." "From start to finished I was invested in Ana and Christian's love story." " It's about the concessions we will make for the one we love and the "hard limits" that keep us true to ourselves. The author has created two very memorable main characters and a laundry list of amazing supporting characters, including "the inner goddess" who honestly was one of my favorites!"

    So it sounds like other readers found the characterization pretty strong and the plot/theme intriguing.

    I totally realize that a lot of people didn't find this. But clearly a lot of people did. It seems kind of arrogant for us to say that the characterization itself was weak just because it didn't work for us.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  4. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Going slightly OT, IMO its more a case of effective marketing and hype of strictly mediocre writing

    This is the first paragraph of fifty shades

    "I scowl with frustration at myself in the mirror. Damn my hair – it just won’t behave, and damn Katherine Kavanagh for being ill and subjecting me to this ordeal. I should be studying for my final exams, which are next week, yet here I am trying to brush my hair into submission. I must not sleep with it wet. I must not sleep with it wet. Reciting this mantra several times, I attempt, once more, to bring it under control with the brush. I roll my eyes in exasperation and gaze at the pale, brown-haired girl with blue eyes too big for her face staring back at me, and give up. My only option is to restrain my wayward hair in a ponytail and hope that I look semi-presentable"

    Leaving aside the multiple issues with punctuation and flow of language (or the lack of it) , who starts a book with 100 odd words dedicated to their character brushing their hair... effective writing this is not.
     
  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I kind of agree with you, except...

    Since I started writing I've had a much harder time finding books I enjoy reading. I've always been a reasonably critical reader, but when I started writing my inner critic went into overdrive, and things that I would have been able to gloss over became things I couldn't stand.

    So I agree that a lot of readers don't have the jargon to identify issues, and I agree that sometimes the issues nevertheless have an effect on readers. But, as in the 50 Shades example, I think there are times that readers really don't seem to give a shit.

    Nora Roberts does head-hop like a madwoman. Drives me up the wall. But she's super-duper popular despite this.

    There are rave reviews for books that I can't stand to look at because they break my writerly ideas of how writing "should" be done. But at least some readers don't seem to be pulled out of the story by the stuff I'm objecting to.
     
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  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    It doesn't work for you. Fair enough. I don't find it too interesting myself. Fair enough.

    But go read the Amazon reviews. A lot of people love this book. Love it. And a lot of them admit that they bought it because of the hype, because they wanted to know what the big deal was... and then found themselves hooked.

    I don't think it's about the writing in a "put the words on the page in the right order" way. But there's something about the characters and the story that has clearly caught and kept the attention of a lot of readers.
     
  7. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    But that's just taste isn't it? Some readers love first person, I prefer third. Neither of us are right, and our different reviews wouldn't mean the book is objectively good or bad.* There aren't many things that are objectively wrong in writing, so of more or less any novel will find fans.

    I do know what you mean about being more critical once we begin writing. But one thing I noticed was that I can now put my finger on why novels bothered me pre-writing; like The Boleyn Inheritance being in present tense. I didn't notice what tense it was in when I read it, I just knew that something felt off. Or The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy being in omniscient POV. I knew I wanted to be closer to the characters, but I didn't know it was because it was in omni (probably hadn't heard of omni POV). Still love The Guide, by the way. :) These things bothered me pre-writing, in the same way that head-hopping probably did (because it certainly does now, and I don't think it's writer prejudice). I just didn't have names for these things.

    So when I see writers claiming that "only other writers care about this stuff," I think that's a cop out. A bit like the old "That's just my style!" defence for critique.

    *Edit to add that this is a crap example because I would never give a novel a bad review for being in first person.
     
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  8. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Now you have me wondering if I have a unique voice or if I've been writing "serious writer's voice" without even knowing it... :ohno: not that I follow "rules". I don't. I use all kinds of dialogue tags, wrote an entire novel in present tense first person, occasionally use run-on sentences, use adverbs every so often. Whatever works really. The question for most writers is of course the art of figuring out what does work. I guess the only one I adhere to is the "no head-hopping" thing.

    I guess the other problem with workshops and critique forums is: most of those participating are at about the same level as yourself, sometimes perhaps far worse. Of course, peer learning is effective, but peer learning without the master is... well... the blind leading the blind. Yes, everyone's feedback is of some value, their reactions valid as a sincere reader - but being able to point out flaws isn't the same as knowing how to fix it. (if it were, I'd have my WIP finished already - I know where all the flaws are) Now add on the fact that writing is very particular to each individual as well as to that individual's story, and suddenly giving advice is a whole lot harder.

    Also, people tend to critique the writing and almost never the story. Half the time we don't know the story - we just get a scene taken from somewhere in the middle. However, it is very hard for workshops and forums to give any useful feedback on structure and build-up when one would not normally post work of great length, and truth be told, story structure, pacing, foreshadowing are what needs critiquing the most, and the hardest to get right, and stuff some more experienced but unpublished writers struggle with the most. Critiquing writing - sentences and paragraphs - is easier than critiquing story structure and why a scene has emotional impact and how that impact was built up throughout the book. But the work it takes to dissect a book is too much to ask of any workshop or forum, esp when the critique is done for free.

    Workshops and critique forums have their place, but it's more for practising skills and tools you got from elsewhere really.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
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  9. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    As a middle-aged writer with a cat I noticed a preponderance of middle-aged writers with cats always writing about their middle-aged writing and their cats. Where are the other writers, and where are the cats who do not write, or the cats who mew, miaow or growl? I like those cats. Cats round here just meow meow all day long it's so boring.
     
  10. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Wow, that is awful. My favorite part is when she says "I must not sleep with it wet" twice and then tells us she's reciting the mantra. I totally wouldn't have gotten that. Glad to know she rolled her eyes in exasperation and not, I don't know... pride?
     
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  11. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    My favourite comment was from the Snark Squad when they read it. One of them quoted the bit about the big blue eyes and said, "EW, WHO WANTS THOSE?"
     
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  12. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    "I howl with frustration at myself in the mirror. Damn my tiny penis – it just won’t behave, and damn Katherine Kavanagh for being ill and subjecting me to this ordeal. I should be studying for my final exams, which are next week, yet here I am trying to brush my weener into submission. I must not sleep with it wet. I must not sleep with it wet. Reciting this mantra several times, I attempt, once more, to bring it under control with the brush. I roll my eyes in exasperation and gaze at the pale, brown-haired boy with blue eyes too big for his face staring back at me, and give up. My only option is to restrain my wayward willy in a hairband and hope that I look semi-presentable"
     
  13. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    50 Shades started as Twilight fanfiction online by the name of 'Masters of the Universe'. James was able to not only shed the Twilight facade (though she uses Anglican terms and idioms despite it set in Seattle) she had a platform before she even self-published, and that appealed to the 'Twimoms' as they called themselves.

    To the thread overall, particularly about not liking things that are reviewing well, I'm just going to refer to a statement I made when someone was whining to me about diversity in the arts.
    "Real diversity is audience a wide range of works, not making the works in the limelight cater to as many people as possible."
    Maybe the books that get on our nerves deliver something to others they find novel, and that's why they're doing well, I can't say for sure, but we all have different tastes so I think as many different styles, provided that they are well researched and deliver the story well, should be out.
     
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  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    That explains a lot given how dreadful the twilight books were
     
  15. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    I couldn't finish this sporking of the damn thing. It is also worth noting that they brought up that Grey has a disturbing number of similarities to Robert Lee Yates, who is currently on death row.
     
  16. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I actually don't mind the paragraph so much. I read the entire book - huge chunks of it was horribly dull, esp the sex scenes, which kinda make up most of the book. I didn't care enough to read the second one. But that opening paragraph - *shrug* - it's all right. It fits the genre it's going for, which I am assuming is a sort of chick lit romance sorta thing. I've read chick lits and romances and they all start in a similarly inane way, to be honest. I once read a book that opened with an entire chapter detailing everything this woman was planning for her husband's birthday. I never made it past chapter one. I also tried to read Bridget Jones, which I believe started with a list of New Year Resolutions written in diary form. I couldn't believe why anyone would ever think the specific units of alcohol consumed detailed in list form would be interesting in the slightest.

    So, to be honest, 50 Shades beginning with a description of hair isn't so surprising, and fits well with its target audience - mostly female romance readers.

    Also, I am assuming you're not a woman, but keeping your hair under control and worrying over bed hair is a pretty common thing amongst women - I don't know about adult professional women but certainly teenagers. I have straight hair, so it's never been a concern for me, but I've heard enough comments from my female friends all telling me how lucky I was that my hair was straight, so neat, that it takes them 30min just to brush their hair, esp after washing it. Girls really do worry over their hair in exactly the way described in that opening paragraph - it is very common for a woman with long hair to simply tie their hair back into a ponytail just so they don't have to worry about looking like a freak.

    So yes, it is effective. You're just not the right audience. Excellent writing it is not. But I would not say it is all bad. Frankly, I have read stuff from aspiring writers that read a lot worse than 50 Shades. 50 Shades' writing quality does meet a certain standard that is higher than those who only wish to write a book. Some people who criticise 50 Shades' writing quality couldn't write something of equal level. That doesn't make their critique wrong - it's often easy to spot flaws but not easy to know the solution. But it does tell you 50 Shades is on a certain level. A low level, but still higher than a lot of aspiring writers.
     
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  17. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I can't disagree with this enough!
     
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  18. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Right? Give me sallow and squinty any day! Or barring that, an eye patch. Reminds me of a story I will not share here...
     
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  19. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Naw, but I got this beard faded into a pompadour that requires an industrial trimmer with six guard settings and if I sleep on that wrong I wake up looking like a garden gnome that went through a lawnmower...
     
  20. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Fifty Shades/Harry Potter all got people reading. The people who are often embarrassed to be seen with a book keep these books in their houses, the same people the reviewer laments for their absence in submissions - in terms of voice...[so the argument might go...]
     
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  21. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    The first thing that comes to mind is perhaps asking your teacher to give you feedback since you're in school. If you can, I'd say find someone older who you're comfortable in sharing the parts your beta seems to take particular issue with.
     
  22. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    I got no shame in admitting this. Harry Potter was the first real book I read, and it might sound silly, but without the joy, I had reading this book as a child, I doubt I would have ever read 'The Divine Comedy' and 'Paradise Lost' which became my favorite books of all time. We got to start somewhere.
     
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  23. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I went to a very rough school in a very deprived area - the kind of school where doing well academically gets you bullied, and more than half the students leave without qualifications. In our English literature GCSE class, we had to give a presentation on the book of our choice. One of the 15-year-olds gave his on Harry Potter, which was the first book he'd ever read and enjoyed.

    My brother, very non-academic, read Of Mice and Men in school and loved it. But he didn't read again until last year, aged 30, and now he's hooked on space operas.

    So yeah, I think books that aren't the height of 'literature' but do get people reading have their place. A more important place than the classics, maybe.
     
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  24. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Harry Potter kicks ass and I'll have words with anyone who says otherwise! (and I was at least 22 when I read it)
     
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  25. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Caveat: I've read excerpts from FSOG but not the whole thing. Mainly because:
    a) there are so many abusive relationship red flags I can't even begin to root for the romance
    b) the BDSM practices are faaaaaaar from safe/sane/consensual and I know enough about the scene to be completely squicked out by what happens in the book
    c) first person POV is a deal-breaker for me as a reader

    That said, as someone who is totally in the demographic for this book (40-something white suburban mom), I have to say a good majority of my female friends and family read and loved the book unabashedly. These were not women who had rarely picked up a book before; in fact, most of them read far more books than me on average, and enjoyed a variety of genres. These were also not people who were incapable of critical thinking - some of them even read several of the copycat books that inevitably sprung up, and could hold lengthy conversations with each other on why FSOG was a better book to them.

    There are things that capture the imagination and interest of a wide audience from time to time that completely escape my understanding. Twilight. The first Magic Mike movie. Ryan Gosling as a sex symbol. All as unfathomable to me as the success on FSOG, but passionately defended by the people who love them.
     
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