what best way to self publish e-books

Discussion in 'Electronic Publishing' started by ewilson1776, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    And I'm saying that a good book in the best genre for self-publishing is still FAR (farfarfarfar) from sufficient for any sort of success.
     
  2. RikWriter

    RikWriter Member

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    And on that we disagree. I managed to sell a lot of copies of my first two SF novels with very minimal marketing.
     
  3. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    Sure, but just because it happened that way for you doesn't mean it'll happen that way for everyone. A good book in a good genre alone isn't necessarily going to do well.

    Much like you said earlier, we should treat your experience as one data point. The right book can succeed with barely any marketing, but it doesn't mean it will.
     
  4. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think we'd need to add at least a third factor - luck? the-right-time-and-place? Something.

    And it's always a bit hard to tell from looking at current Amazon listings, but it looks like your later books haven't sold as well? Is that accurate? I mean, they seem to be doing okay, but not 30K copies okay.

    Assuming that's accurate, would you say you've changed genre? Written worse books? Or is there something else that clicked the first time and didn't click this time?

    Whatever that "something" is (and it could certainly be more than one factor) is what people are talking about when they say "necessary but not sufficient". Yes, the right genre, yes, a well-written book, but also something else.
     
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  5. DeadMoon

    DeadMoon The light side of the dark side Contributor

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    Well that was a nice back and forth to read in the morning with some extra comments sprinkled in for fun. I can understand both sides of the discussion about what sells and how and blah blah blah and so forth. I want to and intend to write more horror then anything, a genre that I think is very low on the best selling kindle categories although a fantasy book may be fun challenge for NANOWRMO.
     
  6. RikWriter

    RikWriter Member

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    They're sequels. That limits the readership a bit more. They also cost more. The first two books were released at 99 cents each because I figured I was a new writer and wanted to make sure as many people as possible got the book. I raised the price for the sequels (and later the originals) because I figured I had established my market and the ones that were going to buy the sequels would pay a couple dollars more for them.
    Also, given the fact that you only get 33% of books priced under $2.99 and 70% of those above that price point, I am actually making the same money selling fewer books at a higher price.
    Once I get through with the next sequel I am writing, I will work on something unrelated to those two series and I may draw a new group of readers, but I am happy with what I've earned from the books I've written and I feel that my experience has been a very successful one.
     
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  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    So we can add at least a bit of "marketing" to the recipe for success, since pricing is part of marketing.

    And maybe add something about "not writing sequels", although already we'd be contradicting the advice of a lot of self-publishers who say series are the best way to get and keep readers.

    But I'd still stand by "luck" as an essential component. There are plenty of authors who've written appealing scifi books that are well priced and not sequels who have not sold any significant quantity. Their books just didn't get noticed.

    (None of this is meant to diminish your pleasure in your success or your pride in it. I'm just pointing out that other people have done very similar things and not had the same results)
     
  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think writers trying to break in right now are best off going the hybrid route. There doesn't appear to be any reason not to do it. For most aspiring writers, they're going to find more success self-publishing than going the traditional route. If your self-publishing venture happens to result in a runaway success (unlikely), then a traditional contract is likely to be forthcoming. In the meantime there is no reason you can't continue to pursue the traditional route.
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You are one anecdotal case. Lightning hits a few people every year, too; I wouldn't use that expectation in my career planning.
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You say that as if there are factual grounds behind the assertion. I have never seen any such factual grounds.

    Most people back up that sort of assertion by assuming that you'll get SOME sales from self publishing, and behaving as if being published by a traditional publisher is essentially impossible. I see no particular reason to assume that a self-publisher will get as many as a dozen sales, and if a book is of publication quality, I see no reason to assume that it can't eventually get published.

    With a DIFFERENT book. Once it's self-published, the value of that book to publishers is substantially reduced. There's a version, probably an inferior version without professional editing at a low price, competing with the publisher's product--why should they accept that when countless authors are offering them shiny new works that have never been published? And as if it hadn't been reduced enough, they have the further evidence of its lack of success.
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    That's not true. There are numerous examples to the contrary, including most recently The Martian, which was published for free on Wattpad, then self-published on Amazon. I known an author personally who self published her book, and wasn't anywhere in the same category as books like the Martian in terms of sales, and had her book picked up by Harper Voyager. Their only requirement regarding her self-published book was that she take it down and no longer make it available.

    There are a number of authors I know who have self-published books that likely wouldn't get traditional contracts, but who are making anywhere from a few hundred a month to over a thousand, depending on the month, with their self-published books. You can only keep discounting such experience as anecdotal for so long, in my view.

    When I attended the talk by Heather Lazare (posted in another thread) she was asked about this as well, and she also said she thought the hybrid route was a smart way for new authors to go these days. I haven't heard any real downside to it, except the idea that you're somehow taking yourself out of traditional publishing as an option, which I don't think is true for most publishers anymore (at least from my conversations with agents and editors), and is becoming increasingly less true overall.

    It's more a case of there still being a stigma, mainly amongst writers, for self-publishing. That stigma has a historical basis that doesn't make sense in today's market.
     
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  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    What percentage of those books were failures when self-published? I don't mean "not runaway successes", I mean failures.

    And how "numerous"? A hundred thousand? Ten thousand? A thousand? One hundred? Ten?
     
  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    What percentage of the ones that failed would have any chance at a traditional contract?
     
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  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    What percentage of the ones that kinda-succeeded did better than they would have with a traditional contract?
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    A lot of the ones I'm talking about that have done fairly well would never get a traditional contract, in my opinion, so the authors have done far better than they would have by spending years trying to get one.

    In any event, I'm not advocating only self-publishing, and I haven't heard a good argument against the hybrid approach yet. The idea that your book can never be traditionally published after is false, so what's the downside? And given that both self-publishing and traditional publishing are viable in today's market, what's the advantage of limiting yourself to one or the other instead of diversifying?
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    "Never" isn't the point. "Reduces the odds" is the point.

    If your book could have been just good enough for traditional publishing, and you self-publish it well before it's ready, with a lousy edit, for a low price, and it fails miserably...do you really argue that an agent or publisher won't care even a tiny little bit about those facts?
     
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  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Sure, but you're biasing things heavily to favor your viewpoint. If you're going self-publishing, to any degree - hybrid or exclusive - you've got to put out a professional product. That means you need a good cover and professional editing job. I don't know anyone who advocates putting out crap with bad editing, so taking those situations into consideration isn't really relevant. I'm talking about serious writers who want to put out a professional product. That doesn't mean it is a book that ever would have been picked up by a traditional publisher, because there are a lot of factors that go into those decisions. It does mean an author who, for her self-published books, makes sure they are well-edited and presented in a professional manner (cover, layout, etc.).

    To make any sensible comparison, you have to confine the self-publishing side to equivalents in traditional publishing - i.e. professional-quality works versus professional quality works. If anyone is advocating self-publishing shoddy, sub-par books, they're wrong.
     
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  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I see you doing the same thing in the opposite direction.

    I'm not concerned about the lousy writer that will never produce a decent book. I don't care if he throws away his work. He can lament about idiot publishers and agents who don't buy his book, or he can lament about idiot customers who don't buy his book.

    I'm not concerned about the fully knowledgeable writer who has researched every last scrap of information about self-publishing, seriously considered the possibility of each claimed fact being wrong (because there are very few facts with good evidence), done his research about what makes a decent product, polished his writing until reliable criticism agrees that is good enough for publication, and decided that he's going to go with self publishing. I will almost always disagree with their decision, but it's an informed decision.

    I'm concerned about the could-be-good, even will-be-good writer who gets frustrated after a few rejections, or even frustrated at the very idea of rejections before they even submit, and who believes that there's "no down side" to self-publishing an early version of their book. (Which they may not realize is an "early" version, because they think it's perfect already.) There is a down side. There's a down side to publicly releasing bad work with your name on it, and with associating what could have been a good book with that bad, failed, version.

    And failing to put out a professional product HAS A DOWN SIDE, right? You keep saying "no down side" to self publishing. There is a down side.

    Of course it is. That will-be-good author THINKS his stuff is good now. He doesn't know that it's crap with bad editing. How would he know? He may have submitted it to a few people that he dismisses as idiots for not accepting it. He may not have submitted it to anyone at all. He KNOWS he is a genius, and he's going to publish, by God! And when someone points out his lousy cover, he pshaws with, "If someone is going to judge a book by its cover, I don't want them reading my book anyway."

    I have never, EVER seen you or any other self-publishing advocate say, "If you publish a book before it's reached professional standards, you may be reducing or destroying that book's chances of success, in a way that that book can never recover from." Never. The message always seems to parse out to, "Eh, these hugely successful books got contracts, so no risk!"

    If that--"no risk!"--is not your message, then I think you need to make your message clearer. There IS a risk in publishing a book before it's ready. And it's not easy and obvious to tell when it's ready.

    There is risk.

    I'm talking about (1) serious writers who (2) want to put out a professional product but (3) are not yet capable of that and (4) don't know that.

    You're ignoring that segment. I think that that segment is the largest, by orders of magnitude, segment that deserves concern here.

    And I say, no, you don't. The authors who could eventually have written worthy-of-publication works, and who throw away promising books with lousy self-publishing jobs becasue they're assured that that is a risk-free enterprise, are the ones I'm worried about.
     
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  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    This could apply to any business opportunity, and a person's own bad judgment in how they go about it. Part of being a professional, and putting out a professional product, is being able to ascertain whether you have a quality product, and being willing to do things like get a professional cover done, get a professional editing job, etc.

    Anyone, in any business, who thinks they have a good product, but in fact have a lousy one, is going to do poorly. That's no reason with people with good products to avoid going into business.

    Let's narrow this down and see if there is an area on which we agree or not. If, just for purposes of this one specific point, we assume that we're talking only about the pool of authors who not only think they have a professional product but do in fact have one, do you have a different viewpoint on the hybrid strategy?

    Whenever I talk about self-publishing, online or in person, I stress that it is important to make sure you're at that professional level and not jumping the gun, at least if you want to be serious about making an income as a writer. The people who don't do that are amateurs, not professionals. I think to do an "apples to apples" comparison of the relative pros and cons of any business opportunity, you have to talk about people who are similarly situated in terms of their professional approach to the business.
     
  20. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Then you really need to stop saying "Hybrid publishing....no down side" without adding clarification. Because that says nothing, NOTHING about professionalism. And you can't assume that professionalism is a given, or that professional standards are even vaguely understood, in an area like self-publishing, that is packed with hobbyists.

    But it's a reason to avoid poisoning your future market by releasing a lousy product prematurely. And I don't see you even acknowledging that risk.

    For most fiction by new authors, no. The problem of a sprinkling of decent works in a sea of bad works is still too overwhelming. I would support a solution to that problem, probably in the form of a huge stringently regulated reviewing system, but that solution doesn't exist.

    There are some exceptions--book types that are simply not publishable, authors that already have a reputation, especially authors of nonfiction, etc. But in general, no. The reviewing problem is too immense. And for book types that are simply not publishable because they're not profitable, I'm now interested in the idea of nonprofit publishers, which I hadn't previously realized were a Thing.

    I don't see that from you very often. It certainly wasn't in post #133, which started this discussion between you and me. In fact, that post could be read as the opposite--"writers trying to break in" and "aspiring writers" could suggest pre-professional writers, even if you didn't mean it that way. "Doesn't appear to be any reason not to do it" suggests that there are no risks. "no reason you can't continue to pursue the traditional route" suggests that the self-publishing of the book will have no affect whatsoever on the desirability of the book for traditional publishers.

    I see no awareness, at all, of risks, in your advocacy of self-publishing.
     
  21. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    There are quite a number of traditionally-published authors whose subsequent books don't sell as well as their first big hit either—such as Dan Brown.

    Da Vinci Code - 80 million
    Angels and Demons - 39 million
    The Lost Symbol - 30 million

    Even ...wait for it ....JK Rowling.

    This from the current Wikipedia list of sales of her bestselling books. She lost damn near half her buyers after the first Harry Potter book, and the numbers for each book kept declining after that. Mind you, many of us would kill to sell 50 million books, but it's the trend that we're talking about here, isn't it?

    Philosopher's Stone (the first one) 107 million
    Half Blood 65 million
    Chamber 60 million
    Prisoner 55 million
    Goblet 55 million
    Order 55 million
    Deathly 50 million
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  22. RikWriter

    RikWriter Member

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    Why would I not write sequels? I have a ready-made audience for them who I KNOW will pay more money for the books, thus getting me nearly as much for one sequel as I got for two 99 cent books. I can also wrap the books into a collection and have yet another item for sale to generate income. The fact that the books don't sell as many raw copies is immaterial to me. I am interested in the income I get from them.
    The only downside was that I took two years to finish the one series and by the time I got the sequel out for the other, it had been over three years and thus there wasn't as much interest as if I had put it out within a year. But once I get the third book in that series done and also release them as a collection I expect to make more money off the second book as well.
    As for marketing...well, if you want to call pricing "marketing" feel free. The fact is, I paid for no ads, didn't do any significant social media push (I only got a Facebook page and an author website after the whole first trilogy was out) and the only thing I did was mention in passing on a couple unrelated message forums I frequent that I was putting the books out if anyone was interested, which took about two minutes.
    And this may be anecdotal, but I have come to know a lot of independently published authors and it is far from unheard of.
     
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  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak

    You mentioned sprinkling a good work into a sea of bad works. That does present a risk to an author self-publishing a book (though I'm not sure it is quite as difficult for a good work to find an audience as some believe). That's an obstacle, but in a similar manner submitting works to traditional publishers in the hopes that one of them will agree to take it on is also a risk/obstacle. You can spend years going down that path with no result.

    The risks of spending a lot of time with nothing to show for it, which exist for both paths, are all the more reason to use a hybrid approach. The risk of your work being lost in a sea of bad works is more an argument against self-publishing exclusively than it is against self-publishing in addition to pursuing traditional publishing.

    Again, assuming you have a professional product to put out there, you've lost nothing by pursuing the self-publishing route at the same time, particularly since it is easy to get the product out on the market. Even if you agree that traditional publishing provides greater benefits, those are only lost if you are exclusively self-publishing. With both paths, you're essentially playing an odds game, and given that neither path necessarily impacts the odds associated with the other, pursuing both of them seems like the most logical choice.
     
  24. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Sequels are very popular, and there is no reason you can't self-publish them. However, it's a mistake to assume that everybody who buys your first book will buy your second one.

    Check out the statistics for the Harry Potter books in my post 146 above. JK Rowling sold nearly double the number of copies for the first book in the series as any of the others. The sales dropped off quite dramatically after that. Of course she sold so many of each book it's kind of silly to be speaking of them as if they were failures. But twice the copies of the first one were sold than the last one.

    I'd suspect she started out with many people who were curious about the new phenomenon, and ended up with far fewer who actually remained enthusiastic throughout the series.

    It's the nature of a series that people will drop off rather than clamber aboard. Folks aren't going to pick up a series partway through, so your sales of each one is not likely to be more than the previous one. However, it's probably easier to market each subsequent one, because people who are interested will want to find out what happened next. But if you're counting on numbers increasing with each installment ...I reckon you shouldn't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  25. RikWriter

    RikWriter Member

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    It's a good thing I never said that then.
     
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